bowhunters you better read this

[Delw]

Az402
hangs with a higher class of people That I hang with. the guys he hunts with or knows that hunt are very serious about bow hunting.

the guys I know and hear from are just run of them mill hunters who are only serious about themselfs getting drawna nd someone telling them where they should hunt. They constantly complian about not getting drawn and sticking iot to the non res so they have a better chance at tags.
This is kinda why I dont hunt with these guys cause of the constant whining and crying. kinda takes the fun out of hunting.

Unfortunatly the whiners and cryers got there way for more tags( or at least a proposal) with the cut of early bull tags.

I really dont believe its a money issue as much as it is trying to make the the crybabies happy,
how ever that being said more tags due equate to more money.

 

[BOHNTR]

I guess I still don't understand the logic. Whats' wrong with having a high success rate on an archery hunt? Isn't that the desired objective anyway? If it's not broken, why try and fix it?

I'm with Stan, I'd rather wait my turn for a tag, knowing that when I do draw I'll have a fairly good opportunity to arrow a record class bull. I don't want to draw every other year and have a hunt that we all know will produce very low odds at arrowing a record class bull.

I also think this is about money folks. A way to sell more tags, charge the early hunts as a "premium" price tag, and offering a hunt in the late season where success will be low. ALL THIS at the cost of taking away tags from a good hunt in September. Just my .02.

Delw:

I've had Stan in my hunting camp a few times this year, does that mean I'm one of those "higher class of people"? hump Okay, maybe I'm pushing it!

 

[Washington Hunter]

I don't see anything wrong with a state wildlife department trying to make money, if in fact that is the reason behind it. After all they pretty much have to operate like a business. They have a product to sell and a customer to buy the product, and the price is dictated by the law of supply and demand. I don't understand why hunters are always complaining about their state's wildlife department making money. The same thing is said here in Washington. I hear it all the time..."it's all about money, blah blah blah." Well yes, it IS about money, because without money there would be no department of wildlife to manage wildlife! I don't really care what happens in Arizona, because I don't plan on hunting there, ever. But, maybe if you guys complain enough, they will keep it as is. I'm still curious as to how much fun it is to hunt in the Arizona heat during the month of September.

 

[A-con]

State departments claim they are giving us more opportunity to hunt, but many people think they just want to sell a lot more tags with very low success rates. This year, New Mexico started selling OTC tags for archery elk hunts in some “high demand” areas. The numbers aren’t in yet, but I just read a thread on another board about November archery elk hunting in unit 34, one of New Mexicos best. The people that posted had very poor success, some saying they did not even see any elk. I bet when the numbers are posted, success rates for these late archery hunts will be well under 10%, maybe less than 5%.
If Arizona wants to provide more opportunity, and increase revenues, why not sell late season tags and keep the September hunts where they are ? With the chances of actually getting an elk down around 5%, they can maintain herd numbers and make everyone happy (well, reasonably happy)

 

[TheTone]

WH, the job of a state wildlife department is not to make money, it is to manage the willdlife resources of a state. That said it does take money to manage wildlife and those costs do go up every year. The people posting here from AZ have well stated what they feel the objectives are for these proposals.

 

[Washington Hunter]

I realize their main purpose is not to make money, but to manage wildlife. It's just that they do need to sell tags to generate revenue, and they need to balance the number of hunters with the number of animals available for harvest. Apparently many Arizona hunters have asked for more tags so they may have a better chance of drawing. Sounds like the state is trying to come up with a plan to accommodate those hunters that perhaps are more interested in quantity rather than quality. Like I said, I don't care either way. Hopefully it works out for the best.

 

[Oak]

I sincerely think it's a trend to limit harvest success while maintaining current revenues. Colorado did much the same moving the 1st rifle elk a week later from the rut this season.

Ok, this is off topic but NHY, you're flat wrong. I explained to you why the season was moved in the "full moon" thread. There was NO thinking about the season dates involved. The first season starts on the first Saturday of October on or after Oct. 9th every year. Last year Oct. 9th was a Saturday. This year it was a Sunday, so the season started the next weekend.


Ok, now on topic. I assume the cut in early archery tags is so they can charge the premium price without going over the set cap on premium tags. Would the bow hunters rather see them leave the numbers the same and raise the cap on percentage of tags at premium price, so that the state could charge the premium for them?

What's the reasoning for the cut in Dec. deer tags?

 

[Delw]

Acon

If Arizona wants to provide more opportunity, and increase revenues, why not sell late season tags and keep the September hunts where they are ?

they cant due to then the quotes of what they figure will get killed will be thrown all out of whack. tahst why they say if they take x amount off the rut hunt they can give about 2.5 more tags to the fall for everyone they tag off of the rut. Basically all due to success rates,

Success rates are what help game and fish determine what amount of tags they can let go for the next year...

 

[Erik in AK]

What are the success rates for these hunts?

I'm not personally affected by this but from what's been posted so far the only group being "hurt" is the dedicated september tag applicant.

Hypothetically, lets say that the success rate for the Unit 9's 100 September tags (since it was mentioned) is 60%. Argueably, that's 60 of the most sought after bull elk in the country. If the the September tag quota is cut down to 50 tags and the success rate remains relatively constant that would result in an additional 30 or so bulls surviving to the late season thereby increasing hunter's chances by 30 bulls.

My point being that the presence of additional bulls during the late season mitigates, somewhat, the arguement that the additional late season tags are a akin to a scam.

Also, I tend to give F&G Depts the benefit of the doubt. Isn't it reasonable to assume that from the perspective of Arizona's professional game managers, the numbers being proposed represent the best compromise between public demand and the resiliency of the resource.

Am I terribly wrong on this one?

As far as this being about money....managing game herds and hunts costs money. For you AZ guys a question: Are funds generated from hunting and fishing in AZ earmarked for G&F management, or are they a part of the state's general fund where they are subject to the whims of the legislature. If the latter is true, your next sportsman's movement may need to be about setting aside G&F funds for G&F.

 

[A-con]

Acon

they cant due to then the quotes of what they figure will get killed will be thrown all out of whack. tahst why they say if they take x amount off the rut hunt they can give about 2.5 more tags to the fall for everyone they tag off of the rut. Basically all due to success rates,

Success rates are what help game and fish determine what amount of tags they can let go for the next year...

I understand that Delw, my point is, success rates would be so low on November archery hunts, the affect to harvest rates would be minimal.
Does anybody have any numbers on success for the unit 23 late hunt ?

 

[AZ402]

22 late archery over a five year period averaged 18.6% success rate. 23 late archery over the same time frame averaged 12.6% success rate.

 

[AZMIKE111]

Anyone with any logic would understand the way the AZGFD has the September hunt set up is the way it should be. Our elk heard is managed for quality, where it will take many years to draw. It is also managed for slightly less quality, depending on your choice of unit where even a whiner could manage to wait for a tag. Cutting half the September tags and adding them for a double trouble November hunt will cause three times as much whining out of hunters. If hunters are complaining about a tough draw already the September hunt will be twice as hard to draw=more whining. The November hunt will suck and it looks like there will be plenty of those tags=a hell of a lot more whining than there already is. The way AZGFD has the hunt set is the way you will hear the least amount of complaining. Start changing what is good already in Arizona and you will have many hunt experiences like Ithaca has experienced.

 

[Ithaca 37]

AZ402 says the late hunt success is 12%--18% . That's not bad! I'd take those odds any day. I've been in whitetail and turkey hunts where the odds were lower than that and got one every year.

Sounds like the AZ whiners just want a guarenteed kill, not a real hunt. Quit bitchin' and learn how to hunt. 13% success means one out of eight guys will get an elk. You think you're not good enough to be the one out of eight? What percentage of fishermen catch 80% of the fish?

 

[Oak]

Looks like you don't have to worry about the "premium" tag fee this year.

"Arizona Game and Fish Commission approves new license, tag fees
The Arizona Game and Fish Commission approved new fees to be charged for fishing and hunting licenses, stamps and hunt permit-tags at its December meeting in Casa Grande.

The Arizona Game and Fish Department sought the increases through the state Legislature and public rules review process in order to help meet increasing operating expenses and to address program priorities. The new fees will affect licenses, tags and stamps that will be used in 2007.

The commission made some modifications the department’s original fee proposal, including the elimination of class A or “premium” deer and elk tags and a change to the cost of a nonresident bighorn sheep tag from $2,000 to $1,400. The commission also directed the department to keep youth licenses near current prices and created new youth hunt permit-tag fees for elk at $50, deer at $25, javelina at $15 and turkey at $10. Youth tags will be offered to resident and nonresident youths who apply for hunts dedicated to youths (not for hunts that adults may also apply for)."

 

[A-con]

Thoses success rates suprise me, nothing wrong with over 10% for archert elk. Now I see why they would have to reduce sept. tags so much. I still hope they keep it "as is". On the other hand, I might need to re think my "2nd choice" for 2006.
Ithaca 37, if you think a Sept. elk hunt in Arizona is a "guarenteed kill" your dreaming. A lot of people, better hunters than me, go home with nothing but the memories.

 

[Craig S.]

Sounds like the AZ whiners just want a guarenteed kill, not a real hunt. Quit bitchin' and learn how to hunt. 13% success means one out of eight guys will get an elk. You think you're not good enough to be the one out of eight? What percentage of fishermen catch 80% of the fish?

Ithaca 37 let me guess you are one of those angry United States Outfitter clients. As far as an answer to the 80% on fish: GOOD ONES!


Moving on I am new on this site but I feel I am pretty well versed on this subject. I am an Arizona Native bowhunter & I am darn proud of what we have for wildlife within the boundaries of our state. I don't believe the entire Game & fish department is money hungry just a few people in some high places. Heck you can't hardly blame the line guys, they aren't even considered middle class with their wages. They have to eat & support a family just like the rest of us.

For those of you who don't know AZ402 you might want to sit back & listen to the man before you go blasting his thoughts & point of views. He is part of one of the most successful Arizona elk hunting clans in the State. I might add that to my knowlogde they hunt only public open land.

Arizona's archery elk hunts over the past 10 years have been designed to take quality animals. The hard core archers' that hunt here, non-resident & resident alike realize what it means to draw such a tag on a GOOD moisture year. They can truly be the one of the most exiciting hunts of your life. Most of us have grown to accept the fact that it might take us 5-10 years to get a permit for one of these hunts. I currently have 7 bonus points & over the past few years there was definetly times when I was thoroughly dispointed to not draw. Now with that being said I am the only one to blame for this because there is several hunts with easier draws for archery elk, such as archery cow hunts. These usually range from 40-90% success on the draw. If the November archery elk hunts do take place they would definetly be nothing more than a crap shoot. The success rates will be below 10% & most hunters will go home unhappy. I realize that hunting is not supposed to be easy & totally believe that you should have to work for it after all you are taking the life of an animal. If they take 50% of the tags they will be doing nothing more than ruining a good quality hunt. The opportunities to hunt are there it is just everyone wants an archery bull permit during the rut & you just are not going to draw one every year. I have more to express on this subject but I don't want to ramble.

In closing I will tell you this 100% of all the HUNTERS that I have talked to are against cutting 50%,40%,30%, or even 20% of the Septmeber hunts to establish a hunt that is going to cause nothing more than alot of disappointment & not to mention more Stress on the elk.


Thanks,
Craig Steele

http://www.callemin.com

PS

Please, excuse any mis-spelled words! I am a redneck fireman that likes to hunt not an english major.

 

[Moosie]

Please, excuse any mis-spelled words! I am a redneck fireman that likes to hunt not an english major.

HAHA.. that should be your Signature.. because when the Elite start looseing the Battles.. they Poke fun at words..

"For those of you who don't no AZ402 "

OHH BTW, "no" is the Opposite to "yes", "Know" is what you meant up above ... (PS, trust me, Spelling isn't a Criteria Around here... )

Welcome aboard mate, what a Way to make an Entrance

 

[Washington Hunter]

Moosie, "looseing" should have been "losing."

 

[Craig S.]

Thanks for the proof reading.

 

[BOHNTR]

Good post Craig and welcome to the dark side!