ATV's and Bird hunting

[Idaho Ron]

This year I have seen more and more ATV tracks along the canyons. I have heard rumors that guys are using big running pointing dogs to find birds and riding ATV's to keep up with the dogs. So far I haven't seen the guys that are doing it, just tracks. I have also heard of guys that are doing the same thing grouse hunting. One of the guys I work with saw a bunch of ATV riders "pushing" the brush for grouse.

I admit it. Yes I do own a ATV. I use mine instead of my truck when the weather is good. It gets 60 miles to the gallon this helps me a bunch. No I do not own a 4 wheel drive model. Mine is for roads only. I use mine for some big game hunting but not much. I use it on the same roads that trucks use. Again the biggest reason I use mine is the convenience and fuel savings on open roads.

Something has to be done about hunting birds off of ATV's. I don't mean stop people from using them to get to where they want to hunt. I mean stop poachers from using them as a tool to poach.

The sticky part. Last year I used my ATV to get to a spot to go blue grouse hunting. The road was big enough for a truck to drive on and it HAD tracks from a jeep or a truck on it. I drove the road to a spot I thought looked good for grouse. I got off and walked up the hill hunting grouse. I returned to the ATV about 6 hours later with a limit of blues. A two wheeled motorcycle rider came over to me and said. you are on a trail that is closed to ATV's. I said this looks a hell of a lot like a road to me.
Well he said I don't want to get into it. He said look it up. Then he tore off with his two stroke dirt bike. He was going so fast that he was throwing a rooster tail on the corners and digging ruts.
I looked it up on a forrest service map. It was so confusing that I gave up and called the local forrest service. They said the guy was right. It was a "trail" that was closed to ATV use. I said the thing is being driven by cars and needs to be posted! They said they have no intention of posting the "trail" and if they catch people using it with trucks or ATV's they would be fined.
Land use maps are hard to read in some cases. In some cases roads that are large enough to drive trucks on are closed to ATV's and open to motorcycles.
If a area has a road that is open for motorcycles why is it illegal for a ATV? if the road is lets say a old logging road why shouldn't a ATV be allowed if erosion is not a problem. What is the difference between a motorcycle and a ATV in that case?

I can see a time where ATV's will be regulated to the point that the guys that have them will get motorcycles. Motorcycles are allowed almost everywhere in the state with ton's of trails and linking systems. Just regulating ATV's is not the answer in the long run. After the slobs on ATV's lose their ATV's they will buy Motorcycles.

Then we have Snow mobiles. when we are lucky enough to get snow, out comes the snow machines, and the bums that hunt off of them. I have seen them being used to hunt elk, Mountain lions, and deer.
Why is a area closed to ATV hunting but open to snow machines?
Why is it that a hunter can't use a inline muzzleloader or sabots on a traditional hunt but a ATV, motorcycle, and or a snow machine IS legal? What is traditional about that?
I was at a fish and game meeting once where they showed that Muzzleloaders in this one area, were more successful than rifle hunters. They were wanting more limits and restrictions on muzzleloaders. I asked is it the gun & bullet that is causing the success or is it the ATV, Motorcycle, Snow machine, or the big fifth wheel camper that allows the hunter to hunt longer, that the hunter uses?
Who has the best chance for a kill. The guy that hunts off foot with a inline and camps in a tent in the snow. Or the flintlock hunter that has a snow machine and a fifth wheel trailer?
Boy I really rambled on this one! Ron

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ron, You sure did! I've heard about the guys following bird dogs with ATVs, but haven't actually seen it. It would be really easy to do. The guys with field trial dogs who usually need horses to keep them in site would probably find it even easier and cheaper to use ATVs, so I guess it's just a natural progression. But it seems that following bird dogs on an ATV would be classified as hunting from a vehicle, wouldn't it? The problem is that with only about 90 F&G law enforcement officers in the whole state it's just about impossible to catch them. So what's the solution?

 

[Idaho Ron]

I don't know about the final solution. But one thing that would help is put some teeth in the current off road laws. Maybe a 3 strikes your out. Then you lose your bike!

Yes the guys following the dogs while hunting is ILLEGAL. This would be a flagrant violation. A guy on the wrong road, with no signs posting a closed road, is different than a guy that is hunting off his bike, off the road, and NO trail. In this case, the law should be plain. If you are cought like this you lose your bike, ATV, Snow machine what ever, On the first offence. If you are chasing or fowllowing game, or following dogs that are chasing game you are breaking the law and you WILL lose your machines.
These machines have their place. The guys that are using them are going to be the ones that in the end will reduce the oppertunity for all hunters. Ron

 

[Oak]

Well in CO your gun must be completely unloaded and completely enclosed in a case (no scabbards) while on an ATV. I know that anyone who would do the stuff you're talking about probably isn't going to follow a rule like that, but it makes it easier to prosecute.

I honestly don't see too much ATV abuse during hunting season, mainly because you couldn't get an ATV into the areas I hunt if you wanted to. The place I really see abuse is in the springtime while looking for shed antlers. They drive those things anywhere and everywhere looking for sheds. I've never seen anyone doing it, but see the tracks all over the place.

I don't know what the solution is, but as some have said on here, ATV's are on the way out if riders don't start policing themselves. Stiffer penalties might help also. Maybe they should start seizing the vehicles for illegal use. Folks might think twice before leaving the road. I know it wouldn't have been good for you in the case you mentioned Ron, but if that were the law, wouldn't you make damn sure you knew where you were going before you did it? I think there needs to be a more standard set of rules as to where you can ride, and any roads or trails that are closed in an otherwise open area need to be marked. Who knows...I don't ride one, so what's my opinion worth?

Oak

 

[Oak]

Oops, I was posting while you posted, Ron. Looks like we have similar ideas.

Oak

 

[Washington Hunter]

The problem with posting roads or trails as closed is that people will just tear down the signs. Then how do you enforce it, when a guy is riding on the closed road all he has to tell the law enforcement officer is it wasn't posted. Ron, I agree if that road you were on is closed to ATV's it should be closed to ALL motorized vehicles. I know on part of the Okanogan National Forest all roads are closed to anything that isn't street legal, so that means ATV's. So guys are hunting off of street legal motorcycles. I talked to a local over there last summer when I was at a fire near Lake Chelan. He said that's how he hunts blue grouse. He's retired so he and his buddies spend their time riding around on their motorbikes hunting blue grouse.

 

[Lostagain]

For the most part around here, there are plenty of roads but most are nonmotorized. Te BLM ground in the Dillon area is all closed to offroad travel. Lots of that country has some roads to travel, most even paved(keystone springs), but by and large many are not open anymore. USFS has their travel plans, again the same some areas have roads that are opened and some areaas are totally closed. Buy their $4 map are its all spelled out. Fsih and game areas, the opened roads are marked open, not marked=not open.

 

[Idaho Ron]

As for my confusion this is what happens to me. The forrest service has a travil planner map. There are two different sets of rules. If you look at just one set you might be in trouble.
1- Area use oppertunities/Restrictions
2- Road and trail oppertunities/Restrictions.
The area I was in was listed as a "C" for the Area use oppertunities/Restrictions.
It was listed as a "2" or maybe a "3"in the
Road and trail oppertunities/Restrictions
There as so many differnt rules and regulations that they all become tough to understand. I was pushed off onto several different people in the FS before someone could give me a answer. The people in charge didn't even know the rules.
The was the restrictions go a area might have a trail restriction but be open to "off" trail travil. The loopholes have to be closed an a simpler form must come out of it. Ron

 

[Ten Bears]

IDRON, good to here from you.

Unless the guy following the dog should be in a wheel chair, I think it should be illegal to take the ATV off of the road/trail. Wheel chair bound hunters should be allowed to for bird retrieval. For everyone else here, yes, I do know a freind that hunts from an ATV, but gets around in a wheel chair when he goes to work. He was put in a wheel chair when he was shot in the stomach (severed his spine) with a shotgun years ago. He hunts birds, deer and elk from the seat of an ATV.

I would bet that using the ATV's, motorcycles, and snowmobiles during a traditional hunt is illegal too. I thought that was the reason for coming up with these "traditional" weapons hunts was to have a hunt with limited technology.

I think we need a law that says that if you use a vehicle (ATV or what ever) to poach from (spotlighters included), you lose it to the state (to be sold at auction(?)). Don't we do that with drug people?

I think dirt bikes are more destrctive then the ATV's. Debates? I've ridden both. I prefer the ATV because it's more stable (I'm getting old), and I don't have to "horse" it around. I can just lug an ATV around a corner, and up the trail.

I think if a trail/road is open for dirt bikes or snowmobiles, it should also be open to ATV's. However, if it is closed, it should be closed to all.

Where should horse, mules and other pack stock fit in? Should we have areas and trails open to shod & unshod stock?

 

[MarlandS]

Here it's unloaded and cased when the motor is running. BUT per the letter of the law (also interpretted as correct by a Conservation officer) it isn't illegal to chase dogs in the field with an atv while hunting.

I asked him about this because I might cover 4-5 miles bird hunting in a day all on 3-5 ft fencerows and almost none of them make a loop. Yet, I never have used my ATV for hunting per se, I have dumped it at one end of a long fencerow and drove to the far end (yes around the road) then hunted to the ATV for a ride back (wife refuses to pick my muddy butt up and jockey me around, go figure). Otherwise I can have a 3 mile walk hunting with a 3 mile dry walk back on some of the ground I hunt.

Also, here if you get caught shooting critters from a moving vehicle the DNR takes your game , your gun, your vehicle, you pay a fine, lose hunting priveleges for about 5 years and if you're unlucky you'll get a felony and lose your Gun Rights. Yet people get caught every year .I've heard of more than one guy that's lost their combine for leting people shoot critters from them.

How do you all feel about Plantation style hunts in the south? (except for them generally being on private ground)

 

[Idaho Ron]

Ten Bears, I have not seen anything that stops traditional hunters from using a ATV or what ever. Yes these hunts were designed to be limiting. But they only limit the gun and ammo. A guy can carry a cell phone, GPS, drive a ATV, and dress in all gortex. As long as his rifle and bullets are traditional he is ok. It don't sound right does it? Ron

 

[Ten Bears]

That doesn't sound right at all.

Go look at page 13 in the hunting regs, under Traditional Hunts.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Ten, that rule doesn't stop the ATV's it limits where that can go. They basicly have to stay on the roads that trucks use. I was told if the road was on the BLM map you can use it in a traditional hunt.
Like I said they can still ride the ATV, have the cell phone, the GPS and all the Gortex they want.
Ron

 

[Muledeer4me]

"I might cover 4-5 miles bird hunting in a day all on 3-5 ft fencerows and almost none of them make a loop. Yet, I never have used my ATV for hunting per se, I have dumped it at one end of a long fencerow and drove to the far end (yes around the road) then hunted to the ATV for a ride back "

So Mars are you saying it wouldnt be fair to lump you in with all the other ATV riding poachers?


Ron,you have to be real carefull about the maps.
We try to decide what area we might be hunting ,if we will be taking any ATV I make sure i get all the maps I can well in advance.
I call for any up-dates to the travel plan maps.
One year we stopped into forest service and asked about a trail we saw others using but we werent werent sure about

they sold us another map then took 20 min using a highlighter marker to up date it ,because the newest ones had not come in yet!!!!.

We try to carry the maps of the area we are using with us just to make sure.
It's a problem for sure.
One of the guys in the Archery club wrote a good recommendation to members of the House Resources and Conservation Comnmittee,Senate Resources and Environment Committee .
He isnt an ATV owner but I thought he had a great grasp on it .
Im not sure if he got any response back yet.
So I know there are groups out there that are working on it.
It needs to be addressed in ALL HUNTING CLUBS AND GROUPS.
I think by more people standing together in a positive light trying to work it out something will be done.
I dont see the approch of the all out I hate them ban them all doing anything except tossing a match on the fire.
I dont see a whole ban on them because there is so much money involved,I do see and welcome restrictions and updated ways to manage all the closures and restrictions.

 

[MarlandS]

MD , well lets see here, I trailer the ATV to one end of the fenceline where it joins the road, drive my truck to the other end where it joins the road and park. I hunt down the fencerow to where my ATV is, I unload my gun, case it, and drive back to the truck usually through a tilled field.

Does that compare with sitting on an ATV and shooting an Elk?? You tell me. Hell Ithaca , Buzz, anyone tell me does that compare?

 

[BuzzH]

Marland, no it doesnt.

MD4ME, I'm positive I want to see more restrictions on ATV's during hunting season, is that being positive enough for you?

 

[Washington Hunter]

Sounds like Marland is hunting on private land anyway. If not, at least what he's doing is not affecting any other hunters. Who cares if somebody uses one that way? He's not tearing up the ground with it, he's not going around gates and passing up the poor guy who's been hiking uphill for 3 miles trying to get to where he expects to find a mule deer before sunrise.

 

[Ten Bears]

IDRON, I think they should ave to walk from pavement on traditional hunts. I wont say they should not wear gortex, or carry a GPS (those are a matter of safety).

MARS, your an evil ATV rider like the rest of us. You only get special treatment because your the MOD, anybody else would have been lectured for riding through a tilled field. I have seen elk while riding my ATV, but never shot anything from it. Are you saying it's wrong to ride my ATV on open roads/trails?

BUZZ, your "wants" are self serving.

WH, it's just as easy for the guy hiking up the mountain to know if the road/trail is open for ATV travel as it is for the ATV rider. If the road/trail is closed (so riding there is illegal), then making it illegal to ride there while hunting does nothing. If the road/trail is open for travel, and he doesn't want to see or here ATV's, then maybe he should consider hunting somewhere else.

In any event, if the area is closed, and you see it happen, but don't report it, you have no legitimate complaint.

 

[Muledeer4me]

Mars,the only point I was trying to make was ,that many of us only use our ATVs in a legal manner yet have been labled for owning them.That would make you by default one of US.
Driving up to a jumping off spot and leaving an ATV somewhere at the bottom is pretty commom ,nothing illegal about it.
No one would be shooting off of or out of a ATV or Truck,no one would be driving closed roads or off trails.
So whats the difference? We both own ATVs,we both are using them to hunt.
Neither are illegal.
Shouldnt we be supportive of legal use and sticking together to stop anyone that is illegal?
I think the reason the Blue Ribbon Colation isnt going after this end of it would be becaues they dont market thereself as a hunting org.
This seems to be more of a hunting related problem.
Hunters going off the road or trail.
The ATV clubs are doing there part in keeping access open to multipal use,doing trail work ,pushing the tread lightly stuff.
This issue needs to be brought up more at in the hunting org. (The ones we belong to it's a big issue)so some of us are doing our part's.
Buy trying to demonize the legal and responsible user along with people that care nothing about the resources gets us more devided.
When I think of the resourses we could have buy going after the ones that are causing the problems unstead of putting a wedge between legal and ethical hunters ,it blows me away that people would reather try to make everyone bent to there wishes only,and not try to work it out as bigger group.
Much the same way the anti/firearm people go after the firearms. Demonize them all and not admit that its a people problem,lack of ethics,lack of judgment not ------------you own a firearm or ATV you HAVE to be a bad person.
We as hunters make ourselfs look real bad for using that type of broad brush to paint everyone under.
The only difference between those of us on this forum is the way we are looking at other users.(tolarence issues)?
Because we are united as far as stopping illegal use,having restrictions in place.

 

[Lostagain]

Mars== evil. you have an ATV and not tearing up like the "typical". The way you use yours is nearly identical to my use, get my fat lazy ass back to the truck without walking.