Arizona Elk Quotas

[Zim]

Anyone else perplexed as to how to deal with Arizona's expanding elk quotas? We have 11 points and had been saving to return to unit 1 for archery elk, but the quotas went from 150 to 245 now to this year 350! And the harvest success has plummeted from 56% to 35% over the last 5 years. It looks like they are even doling out more permits to the units they skipped 3 years ago. Apparently they want to sacrifice quality in favor of quantity statewide these days., A shame but oh well maybe it will help repel another AZSFW tag theft attempt?!

This throws a monkey wrench into our 10 year old plan! Very well could draw this year due to this big tag increase. But having serious thoughts on what to do. I am thinking everything is relative, so if they are degrading all the units similarly, we should just stick with our original plan regardless, even though there's no way this hunt would resemble our last one.

 

[BuzzH]

I'd not hunt elk in Arizona, its the pits.

Even with the increases in tags, Arizona has some of the best elk quality in the country...and thats just a simple fact. With the exception of maybe a couple of the best units in UT and NV, Arizona is tough to top. The bull-to-cow ratios are all extremely high.

If I worried about harvest stats, I'd never leave the house. What do harvest stastics really mean? I'd say at least half the people that have permits each year are well past done before their hunt even begins. Mental midgets that are defeated via crunching harvest statistics, tag numbers, etc. IMO, a very average hunter, with average equipment...but a great attitude, combined with a desire to get it done...will always trump the harvest statistics...always.

It seems that those with points feel a sense of entitlement...tough luck, things change. If you banked points for 9+ years, I believe you've squandered multiple opportunities waiting for a mythical hunt that doesnt exist.

There seems to be this thought process that having a bunch of points means sorting through herds of 360 bulls to get at 400 inch bulls...all from the road on a 3 day hunt. That just isnt a reality, and never has been.

I have a suggestion...apply for a tag and quit worrying about tag numbers. The elk, and associated quality are there for those that want to get after it.

Since 2008, I've drawn 3 bull elk permits in AZ...and I've taken great bulls on 2 of those hunts and would have taken a 3rd, but I donated my tag this year to hunt-of-a-lifetime.

Arizona elk hunting sucks, they issue too many permits. Better to stay home and wait another 11 years building more points so the "quality" will come back...

 

[bmack]

Totally agree with you Buzz. Great bulls by the way.

It is funny how many people equate point totals to inches of bone. Lots of wasted opportunities if you ask me. Every years big bulls are killed in easier to draw units or OTC tags all across the West.

Doing research, scouting and hunting your tail off will produce year after year. I'd hate to miss out on those experiences.

Besides, I'd rather nail a bunch of 7's instead of waiting for one 10 anyhow.

 

[WapitiBob]

I also have 11 points. A friend filmed in 1 this year and gave me his report.
27 is the place to go...

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Seems as the same question was asked about Wyoming! I guess when the next state puts up their lists on the net it will be the same story! I guess I just can't understand how a person builds up so many points waiting for the Holy Grail of all units that probably won't be what they envision when they do draw it just like BuzzH stated!

 

[naturebob]

Ya they are over tagging in unit 1. But it is a big unit and You can get away from others if You want. Just a few of Your easy spots will be crimped a little. And any of You guys that think waiting for a Arizona early rifle bull tag aint worth it, YOU have never hunted It and don't know AZ. What You do is hunt other states in the mean time. I have 18 points for elk. (16 years of waiting) But I have drawn 3 tags in New Mexico (2 great ones) in 12 years of putting in. And that great tag when I get it does not gaurentee that 400 bull, I know that. I could draw on a down year as I did in 1996. I got to experience unit 1 in the full rut without seeing another hunter,passing bull after bugling bull ,non stop and there aint nothin like it. Not to mention it is some of the prettiest country anywhere and the weather is great.I used to own a cabin there so I even got to sleep in My own bed on that hunt. G&F is doing their best to ruin that unit tho. I have actually put in for 9 & 10 in the last 5-6 years. But they are getting hammered too. Just gotta know the rite people who know the rite places. You can pull some great bulls out of the late hunts too. A freind killed a 405 bull on a late hunt 3 years ago in eastern AZ. Good luck. Many choices keep Our minds flowing....BOB!

 

[Zim]

Nobody can tell me going from 150 to 245 to 350 permits does not warrant reevaluating one's plans. In fact a guy would be stupid not to.

Implying a sense of entitlement?.......for simply saving more points than someone else might choose to?! WTF??? Give me a break. I've had plenty of good hunts in other states during those 10 years, including Nevada & New Mexico.

 

[BuzzH]

The entitlement is exactly what bmack said, that more points are expected to pan out into more inches of antler/horn.

Zim, you can send your comments on the tag numbers to the AZG&F, you have until Feb. 10 to do so.

http://azgfd.net/artman/publish/New...nput-on-game-management-hunt-guidelines.shtml

Nothing should ever change with regulations...just to suit you.

Enjoy your points.

 

[Flatrock]

If I worried about harvest stats, I'd never leave the house. What do harvest stastics really mean? I'd say at least half the people that have permits each year are well past done before their hunt even begins. Mental midgets that are defeated via crunching harvest statistics, tag numbers, etc. IMO, a very average hunter, with average equipment...but a great attitude, combined with a desire to get it done...will always trump the harvest statistics...always.

It seems that those with points feel a sense of entitlement...tough luck, things change. If you banked points for 9+ years, I believe you've squandered multiple opportunities waiting for a mythical hunt that doesnt exist.

Giving zero regard to harvest stats is not smart though either. It at least has to be considered and is part of doing good research. You're definitely right though about guys who hunt hard with the correct attitude beating the average success rates.

As far as the mythical hunt, everyone is different and who knows why some people have points banked up. Myself personally, there's no way I am able to hunt out of state each year so in the few states that I buy points in, maybe someday I'll end up with 15 points. I don't plan on it but if that happens, I'll definitely want to make the best use of those points.

 

[BuzzH]

vdo84,

I agree with that...but IMO, statistics and averages are phantom scores. It doesnt relate to quality of animal, time spent, who drew the tags, hunt quality, effort by those with tags, research, scouting, etc.

Theres lots of things that impact harvest statitistics other than the hunters...weather, access, private VS. public lands, terrain, vegetation, etc. etc.

It is part of the research for sure, but its probably not even one of the top 5 things I look at when selecting a hunt to apply for.

 

[Zim]

There is a reason states collect data and publish harvest data. Consequently there is a reason resources like HT make them a strong point of their offerred features. They are one relevent part of a research plan. No more, no less.

When I see a trend like success rates dropping 5 straight years from 57% to 52% to 46% to 39% to 35%, call me crazy, but I am going to do some research.

Yes, I solo backpacked 5 miles up into an unrated, low demand NM unit with a 15% success rate and took a 330" bull. So what? I am going to collect info from wherever I can prior to selecting a unit to apply with my 11 AZ points.

 

[BuzzH]

Whats 39% of 245?

Whats 36% of 350

Whats 57% of 150?

Are the number of tags issued relevant to the harvest %??? What percentage of hunters responded to the questionaire?

I'd personally rather take the 36% success rate on 350 tags (meaning they are harvesting 126 bulls and maintaining 40 bulls per hundred cows)...than 57% success on 150 tags (meaning they only took 85 bulls and may not be maintaining 40 per 100).

Also, since AZ is managing unit 1 for 40 bulls per 100 cows, there has to be significantly more than 40 per hundred for them to be increasing tag numbers...and harvest. What those stats also dont tell you is what the age class is on the bulls being killed, or the age classes of whats currently in the unit. Nor does it tell you how that age structure in bulls harvested has changed in the last 5-10-15 years. Lots of variables to consider versus just casually looking at raw statistics.

They are managing on bull-to-cow ratio...not hunter satisfaction surveys. Just the way it is.

Call the biologist and ask what the bull to cow ratio is for unit 1, age classes, etc....good chance of finding out plenty. More than you'll get from the HF.

 

[utah400elk]

JMO
I now have 15 points in AZ. I am very lucky and live and hunt in Wyoming. I plan my vacation time to allow me three weeks in Wyoming (elk and deer). I also have enough time for one week in another state usually for a deer hunt. I have been banking points in AZ for a long time. I have spent a lot of time in unit 1 and 27. They are great units and I think you could find a great bull in either one. I have the same attitude as Buzz for the most part. I don’t think the average stats apply to me. I have always seemed to be successful above and beyond the stats. I think that is because of my hunt drive.

All that being said, in Utah I saved my points for a good hunt with a chance at a great bull (the Dutton). I would love another chance at that rock pile! What I learned on that hunt was that I should have put in for a great hunt with a chance at a good bull. It changed what I did in AZ. I decided to wait for a unit 9 archery hunt. Not to chase the mythical 400 class bull but to have a quality hunt with numerous bulls. I know there are numerous quality hunts in AZ that could be had with my points but I want a unit 9 tag. It’s why I started the AZ game. Just as soon as I draw the tag I will switch to the late rifle tags for more opportunity. I started about 15 years ago building points in four states. My strategy has paid off for me. I have a great archery hunt every year in Wyoming so I don’t think banking the points in the other states is any kind of loss. However, I would say… to each his own.


Good luck in the draws and have a great new year.

 

[naturebob]

Buzz H, nice bulls by the way. Looks like You did some home work and know how to hunt. That sense of entitlement statement doen't stand for Me for 1 bit. That was a dumb statement. We that choose to wait cause We want to. I aint telling others they should. We all have are own way.That whould be like Me saying I think You have more say so on this site cause You have 7k post and I only have 50. Everybody has a different opinion. Acording to the draw stats You should be able to draw a late rifle tags every 5-6-7 years ,And thats what I plan on doing after I finally draw My early bull tag. And You can get lucky also, I drew the early bull tag in unit 1 in 96 with only 3 bonus points.Just on here cause I luv huntin, aint trying to start anything, or telling anyone what to put in for. Some people are very opinionated and I am one of em.But when I talk I don't BS. and I beleive in karma. Good luck in the AZ. draw to You and evryone else. And if anyone has any ? for Az. pm Me and I will gladly help. .....BOB!

 

[chuckyd313]

"Crisis situations" like this makes me happy i dont hunt antlers.

 

[naturebob]

Good one! Luv the humor....BOB!

 

[BuzzH]

naturebob,

None of that was intended for you, I understand your situation regarding points. I've chased better units and point collecting in many states as well. I also know that vacation time, family obligations, etc. make point building a great option for some people. I also know that at a certain point, you're so deep in the point game, that drawing lesser units might not make sense.

But, the risk that goes with collecting those points is that things can change drastically from year to year. Its ridiculous to think that a unit giving out 100 tags this year is going to stay the same for the next 10-11+ years while someone acquires enough points to draw. Its also damned likely that the entire point system can change. That did happen in Arizona with a net result that in some of the best elk and deer units, you're mathmatically eliminated from drawing those tags unless you have max points and/or in the max point pool.

Thats what I have the problem with, people collecting points then whining because the quotas change, the habitat changes, the management changes etc.

If you arent willing to accept those risks, then you shouldnt even apply or collect points.

IMO, its a lot less risky hunting now, knowing what you have...than taking a chance on what "might" be in 5-10-15 years. I dont know about anyone else, but I dont want to die with bunch of bonus points I didnt use.

 

[naturebob]

Buzz, I agree 100% with Your last post. Family comes into play alot and work and $ .I have a very understanding wife of 32 years and been lucky to get time with having raised 3 kids....BOB!

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Good points BuzzH and that's what I was basically trying to say in that short post I made.

 

[Zim]

Totally bizarre off topic whining going on and on and on and on. I have been applying and hunting all the western states for 2 decades. I have been "accepting the risks" involved for twenty years. There are changes every year everywhere. I am 53 and still stay fit running 4 miles daily year round. That helps me greatly in putting trophies on the wall from even marginal units. Does that mean I'm not going to seek opinions on quota & quality trends in Arizona before burning 11 points? No.

What up??? If you have nothing positive to post, why not start your own thread and whine and pout on there?......................instead of posting news suitable only for newbies. This thread is getting choked with mindless drivel instead of constructive opinions on Arizona quotas..