Arizona Elk & Extinct Merriam's Elk

[matechakeric]

I haven't seen anything concrete to suggest they are, but there is a lot of conjecture stating that Arizona elk possess DNA from the recently extinct Merriam's elk. I admit, I see a lot of differences in the appearance, coloration, and structure of Arizona elk compared to other state's rocky mountain elk. That said, I also know animals of the same species can look very different depending on region and climate. ex: whitetail deer in PA are brown whereas they are more oftentimes gray in color in the western states, especially Montana. Compare the coloration of a desert black bear to one from the east coast or coastal Oregon.

Merriam's DNA being in today's Arizona elk makes some sense to me. They lived in Arizona and only went extinct about a century ago. Rocky mountain elk from Yellowstone were shipped in to replace Merriam's on the landscape in Arizona.

curious what other hunters think...

 

[MTGomer]

Merriam's DNA being in today's Arizona elk makes sense to me. They lived in Arizona and only went extinct about a century ago. Rocky mountain elk from Yellowstone were shipped in to replace Merriam's on the landscape in Arizona.

curious what other hunters think...

I’m curious how this circle gets squared?

 

[matechakeric]

I’m curious how this circle gets squared?

i believe Randy briefly mentioned the idea on one of his AZ hunts on Youtube

 

[hank4elk]

Debunked by DNA tests,from everything I have read by scientists.

 

[matechakeric]

Debunked by DNA tests,from everything I have read by scientists.

interesting. well there you go. just about closes it

 

[rustednuts]

When you take a small number of species and put them in an isolated location, you tend to get unique or skewed expression of their genes compared to the general population. Selection plus habitat leads to the rest.

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

I am a lumper. They are all elk.

 

[matechakeric]

When you take a small number of species and put them in an isolated location, you tend to get unique or skewed expression of their genes compared to the general population. Selection plus habitat leads to the rest.

but if you think about it, the timeframe the rocky mountain elk from Yellowstone have been in the relatively isolated mountains of Arizona is probably less than 100 years. seems like a very short time window on the scale of time for such noticeable differences to occur

 

[MTGomer]

What I am thinking about is that they went EXTINCT. Which, if true means extinct... If the elk we have now came from Yellowstone, how did the elk from Yellowstone acquire the genetics of the species that no longer exists? That's what I was asking above about how you square that circle?

 

[matechakeric]

What I am thinking about is that they went EXTINCT. Which, if true means extinct... If the elk we have now came from Yellowstone, how did the elk from Yellowstone acquire the genetics of the species that no longer exists? That's what I was asking above about how you square that circle?

maybe there were some remnant stragglers off in remote areas of the mountains & canyons and declared extinct by scientists and land managers who hadn't seen any animals after thorough surveys (I'm certain early 1900's wildlife surveys were a lot less thorough than what modern biologists perform). then with new elk relocated in, they would have assimilated into the new elk population and just got phased out as a distinct subspecies.

as I read, it was a combo of overhunting, and cattle crazing conflicts are what killed the merriam's elk off. There wasn't an eradication effort to ensure all elk were gone completely. some stragglers could have survived in remote areas unless hunters and ranchers were hell-bent on wiping them off the landscape (which there's no evidence I've seen suggesting).

elk were re-introduced 7 years after they were declared "extinct" in 1906 so it's not like wolves where landowners wanted absolutely zero elk on the landscape.

 

[MTGomer]

I see what you’re saying.

 

[bobbydean]

I have often heard that elk in the Gila have Merriam DNA. Hank for elk disputed that.

Would not argue with Hank!

Nice elk in the Gila!

I have always been wondering.

 

[matechakeric]

I have often heard that elk in the Gila have Merriam DNA. Hank for elk disputed that.

Would not argue with Hank!

Nice elk in the Gila!

I have always been wondering.

I think it would be really cool if some of that DNA was still in the elk population today. it's a cool concept to think about

 

[hank4elk]

What the soldiers didn't kill off, the 1st ranchers & homesteaders did in a very short time after the Chiricauas where run out of the Gila & White Mtns. It was one of the ways they defeated the tribe.
The reintroduction did happen fairly soon afterwards.
I also thought the theory was plausable. It would be cool the find the once largest elk in modern times.
To date I have found no evidence since the DNA testing has been done. No trace Merriams in Gila elk. 100% Rocky Mtn. elk,so far.
Habitat,feed,minerals,warmer climate/easier winters all seem to help grow larger elk in general that one see's in NM & AZ.

 

[Cowkiller]

One of the Merriam's bulls used as a DNA sample for the study had a huge rack and was killed in the late 1800's. It was one of the last known Merriam's elk killed. If I remember the story right that bull was tracked in snow for days in a remote area near the AZ/NM border and when finally killed was found to have many bullets of various calibers healed under the skin. They didn't mess around in those days. Yep they wiped them out.

 

[zach_destroys]

but if you think about it, the timeframe the rocky mountain elk from Yellowstone have been in the relatively isolated mountains of Arizona is probably less than 100 years. seems like a very short time window on the scale of time for such noticeable differences to occur

Look at the transplant elk on afognak island. They haven't been there more than 100 years and they are all huge.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Look at the transplant elk on afognak island. They haven't been there more than 100 years and they are all huge.

Though Roosie’s are bigger anyway...

Also 100 years is what 4 ish human generations... but 20-25 generations of elk?

 

[SaskHunter]

100 years for a secluded herd is a long time. You often see trends in whitetails and mule deer depending on the area. The biggest thing I notice is in mule deer where certain herds/pockets have different "average" antler sets. Some places have wider antlers, some narrower but higher, mass all the way through that looks like a tree trunk, etc. These pockets are throughout a landscape where the different herds do mix but I know roughly what I will see in terms of anters depending on where I go.

Extinct doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any left, it just means we humans couldn't find any traces of them for a set amount of time. I can see them not being extinct when they were declared extinct but it doesn't mean theh didn't go extinct after they were officially decared extinct. If there were any left, it's possible they did or didn't mingle.

 

[AZBridger]

there is a lot of difference in the different herds of elk in AZ in my opinion. I grew up in the units where Merriam's elk were most prevalent and they seem to be a little different than the elk in other parts of the state but it is likely just different genetics. Elk in the eastern part of the state (U1/27) seem slightly smaller bodied than elk in the central/western part of the state (7/8/9/10/11). Their antlers tend to get more massive, shorter main beams and more likely to "throw" extra points. There are several (proven) Merriam's shed antlers floating around in different hands in those parts and they have a lot of the same characteristics as the current elk. It's interesting to think and daydream about but if there are any Merriam's genetics left, they would be so diluted that they would not show up on any kind of test. Another interesting thing is the last Sonoran Grizzly Bears were killed out in the same part of the state less than a hundred years ago and the last known specimen was killed in Mexico in the 70's. Some people claim that the black bears in that part of the state have grizzly genes but I don't think that is even biologically possible.

 

[zach_destroys]

100 years for a secluded herd is a long time. You often see trends in whitetails and mule deer depending on the area. The biggest thing I notice is in mule deer where certain herds/pockets have different "average" antler sets. Some places have wider antlers, some narrower but higher, mass all the way through that looks like a tree trunk, etc. These pockets are throughout a landscape where the different herds do mix but I know roughly what I will see in terms of anters depending on where I go.

Extinct doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any left, it just means we humans couldn't find any traces of them for a set amount of time. I can see them not being extinct when they were declared extinct but it doesn't mean theh didn't go extinct after they were officially decared extinct. If there were any left, it's possible they did or didn't mingle.

I agree 100% with this. On and around my property, the whitetails all have a similar antler setup. Size differences and age makes gives them different characteristics but they all have a similar layout.
I've read about eastern elk still having some leftovers in Ontario when rocky mountain elk were re-introduced. Also, some of the elk that were sent to new zealand by teddy roosevelt came from a population of eastern elk caught by indians in michigan's UP or somewhere. Cool stuff to think about.