The Hedgehog
Well-known member
When is this extra bonus point hunter safety class offered in north west AZ so I can get another point? Combined with a weekend of Las Vegas?
Arizona changing NR tag allocation process
- Thread starter LopeHunter
- Start date
utah400elk
Well-known member
AZ has been very good to me. I have had a few great deer hunts, an unit 9 archery elk hunt, and a very fun archery Javelina hunt. I like the change and have a several deer points, only a few elk points and more sheep and lope points than I care to admit.
Best of luck to everybody in the draws.
Best of luck to everybody in the draws.
I like the new system. But it wouldn't have sgnificanty impacted resident draw odds if they would have guaranteed nonresidents 5% of the random draw tags. We are paying $150 for a general hunting license after all. We provide a huge amount of the funding for AZ. It wouldn't kill em to give us 10% of the tags....
Zim
Well-known member
I clearly did not say the tags weren't valuable. That is just a plain bold faced lie. Not cool. I just believe that buying into the MT point system is a bad investment for me personally, based on what history has shown me. My money will have a better ROI elsewhere. This is based on numbers and point system abuse history. At 56 years old with multiple wheels falling off, I don't need to be buying into any more additional point schemes. I already have a lifetime supply of points (~250) in enough states. But as I also said, MT is a good plan B for when I get shut out.
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There seems to be a common theme of guys in their mid 50s upset by the change. That sort of points out why the change was needed. The old system greatly benefitted middle age hunters and left out young hunters (or hunters that gained the means or desire to apply out of state later in life). The bonus and preference point systems have proven to be detrimental to sustainable public land draw hunting. It's good that AZ had the guts to fry a bunch of us old farts to open the door to others.
One thing to consider about AZ that minimizes the negative impact of the bonus point change is that AZ has zero landowner permits and zero outfitter permits. Every permit in AZ (save a handful of auction permits) is exposed to the drawing. AZ is becoming more and more an outlier on this. Compare this to my state of NM where half of the elk permits are given to landowners. Then 10% of the draw permits are controlled by outfitters. So the supposed 6% nonresident draw permits are only 3% of all the actual elk permits. All in all AZ has one of the most "fair" NR draw systems.
One thing to consider about AZ that minimizes the negative impact of the bonus point change is that AZ has zero landowner permits and zero outfitter permits. Every permit in AZ (save a handful of auction permits) is exposed to the drawing. AZ is becoming more and more an outlier on this. Compare this to my state of NM where half of the elk permits are given to landowners. Then 10% of the draw permits are controlled by outfitters. So the supposed 6% nonresident draw permits are only 3% of all the actual elk permits. All in all AZ has one of the most "fair" NR draw systems.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Sums it up and I agree...
The real problem with point systems in the entitlement attitude that comes with them. Zim actually thinks he's "owed" a permit.
Whatever you do just make sure if you are driving there in the morning from Vegas to remember there is a time change when crossing the hoover dam
Zim
Well-known member
That's because I AM. I paid my dues. Unlike the REAL definition of entitlement.....................People who want sumthin fer absolutely nuthin.
I paid every year, 14 years of time and money. Flew down there for a stupid bonus point that is also devalued by 50%.
Let me tell you the definition of entitlement: AZ HB2072 and the SFW crap that goes on in Utah. People that want sumthin fer givin absolutely nuthin. Not paying anything. Not waiting decades, years, months, or even weeks. Nuthin. Just show them the money now. Outfitters that do nothing but are awarded carte blanche to public land tags like in Oregon & Nevada.
This latest scam is nothing more than bait-n-switch white collar theft. Plain and simple. But hey it's all good because the vast majority of people in favor of this have one common theme................they didn't wait 14+ years, they don't have 14+ points, but they feel entitled. And it's easy for legislators to throw constituent minorities under the bus with no fanfare. Who needs ethics or integrity?
And folks can't figure out why poaching is increasing.
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BuzzH
Well-known member
You're wrong, the only thing you're owed is another point...and that's what you've received for your money.
Show me in AZ statute, rule, or regulation that assured you a tag for entering into a LOTTERY draw...
Show me in AZ statute, rule, or regulation that assured you a tag for entering into a LOTTERY draw...
I totally understand your point and respect it. What I hate about point systems is that they go and change the whole scheme all the time. You have paid some dues, and lots of money just to feel you been cheated. I am at the point where I don't play the big points game anymore and have given up in a lot of states. This includes walking away from species where I had as many as 10 points invested. These include Montanan and Utah. I just don't care anymore, it's not worth it. I have blown lots of points on hunts that took far less to draw than what I had just to get out and maybe that is an option you should consider since your wheels are falling off. It just isn't worth getting bent out of shape and bent over anymore if you feel you have been getting screwed. Go hunt and be happy:W:
I don't see the big deal in waiting on a unit 1 ,9, 10, etc. I mean just go elk hunting! I feel all of AZ elk units have a realistic chance of harvesting a great bull! Besides I wouldn't want to deal with all the 8 friends with one tag holder in those premier units
poormanslam
Well-known member
As you read the rest of this post remember this:
I AM AGAINST ALL BONUS/PP SYSTEMS THEY ARE ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS FOR OLDER PEOPLE. I AM 53 YEARS OLD AND I HAVE CLOSE TO 450 POINTS IN 8 WESTERN STATES IF I WOKE UP TOMORROW WITH ZERO I WOULD BE THE HAPPIEST HUNTER IN THE COUNTRY. I HAVE NO CHILDREN SO I DON"T HAVE ULTERIOR MOTIVES. I HAVE NEVER ADVOCATED TO CHANGE A POINT SYSTEM TO REDUCE THE DRAWING ABILITY OF ONE IN FAVOR OF ANOTHER. I AM ON RECORD AT IDAHO F AND G COMMISSION MEETINGS ADVOCATING FOR THE FAIRNESS TO ALL WHICH IS KEEP ANY POINT SYSTEM OUT OF IDAHO.
The fairest way to distribute hunting permits is random draw: period. Every year everyone has the same chance to draw a permit. Just because I am old does not mean I deserve a greater chance than a brand new hunter coming into the game.
BIG FIN you tempered us to not get loud consider every WORD from here on as SCREAMING my blood boils every time this subject comes up. AZGFD set up the point program not me, I abided by their rules and even made a trip to AZ get a Hunter Ed point. I have a significant investment of time and money in this process.
This change was predicated on the Strip Deer hunts being "Unfair". Was the elk system broke? No, in fact, nonresident applicants in max minus 4 point pool drew early season unit 10 rifle permits last year. This is arguably one of the most coveted elk tags in the country. Does the Az Antelope and Bighorn Sheep draw have the same draw system as deer and elk? NO! So why did they screw with the elk system also?
Now let's talk about entitlement, all of you not in the max pool just got an entitlement on your initial entitlement. How many on this thread and in fact members of OYOA forums submitted comments on this issue? Relish the entitlement even more. I believe in our democratic system of going the way of the majority vote. PLEASE ANY OF YOU THAT SUBMITTED COMMENTS LET US KNOW. I did. Unless you were not old enough at the time, all of you had the opportunity to be in the max point pool for deer 17 years ago. Big Fin if you don't have Max points for deer whose fault is that? Yours. You don't apply for "Glory Tags" (A phrase which I despise and is disrespectful of those of us that do seek this hunting option. Everyone has a right to follow their own desires) I do and that was my intent when they started the point system for deer in Arizona. To do this to their most Loyal (that's right loyal, THEY even call it a loyalty point) customers when approx 88% of the comments were to leave it status quo is heartless, criminal, and bullshit.
Good Luck to all of you non max point holders hoping for a 13B Strip deer permit, your odds are .0008 percent at best.
I AM AGAINST ALL BONUS/PP SYSTEMS THEY ARE ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS FOR OLDER PEOPLE. I AM 53 YEARS OLD AND I HAVE CLOSE TO 450 POINTS IN 8 WESTERN STATES IF I WOKE UP TOMORROW WITH ZERO I WOULD BE THE HAPPIEST HUNTER IN THE COUNTRY. I HAVE NO CHILDREN SO I DON"T HAVE ULTERIOR MOTIVES. I HAVE NEVER ADVOCATED TO CHANGE A POINT SYSTEM TO REDUCE THE DRAWING ABILITY OF ONE IN FAVOR OF ANOTHER. I AM ON RECORD AT IDAHO F AND G COMMISSION MEETINGS ADVOCATING FOR THE FAIRNESS TO ALL WHICH IS KEEP ANY POINT SYSTEM OUT OF IDAHO.
The fairest way to distribute hunting permits is random draw: period. Every year everyone has the same chance to draw a permit. Just because I am old does not mean I deserve a greater chance than a brand new hunter coming into the game.
BIG FIN you tempered us to not get loud consider every WORD from here on as SCREAMING my blood boils every time this subject comes up. AZGFD set up the point program not me, I abided by their rules and even made a trip to AZ get a Hunter Ed point. I have a significant investment of time and money in this process.
This change was predicated on the Strip Deer hunts being "Unfair". Was the elk system broke? No, in fact, nonresident applicants in max minus 4 point pool drew early season unit 10 rifle permits last year. This is arguably one of the most coveted elk tags in the country. Does the Az Antelope and Bighorn Sheep draw have the same draw system as deer and elk? NO! So why did they screw with the elk system also?
Now let's talk about entitlement, all of you not in the max pool just got an entitlement on your initial entitlement. How many on this thread and in fact members of OYOA forums submitted comments on this issue? Relish the entitlement even more. I believe in our democratic system of going the way of the majority vote. PLEASE ANY OF YOU THAT SUBMITTED COMMENTS LET US KNOW. I did. Unless you were not old enough at the time, all of you had the opportunity to be in the max point pool for deer 17 years ago. Big Fin if you don't have Max points for deer whose fault is that? Yours. You don't apply for "Glory Tags" (A phrase which I despise and is disrespectful of those of us that do seek this hunting option. Everyone has a right to follow their own desires) I do and that was my intent when they started the point system for deer in Arizona. To do this to their most Loyal (that's right loyal, THEY even call it a loyalty point) customers when approx 88% of the comments were to leave it status quo is heartless, criminal, and bullshit.
Good Luck to all of you non max point holders hoping for a 13B Strip deer permit, your odds are .0008 percent at best.
LopeHunter
Well-known member
Also, the Feds dole out the Pittman-Robertson funds using a calculation that includes value of hunting and fishing licenses. You spend $150 in AZ to be eligible in the draw and the Feds toss a similar amount to AZ since they sold a license.
Zim
Well-known member
Uhhhhh............ya no. Everyone knows moving the goalposts in the middle of the game is BS. I'm not getting a point this year. I'll get a 1/2 point that AZF&G is pretending is a full point. And 14 of my other points are now also worth 1/2. States do this crap because they are composed of crooked attorneys & politicians that craft crooked regulations. If you tried to do this in the private sector you'd be thrown in jail. The only difference is an unethical piece of paper.
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
May I suggest a submissive mail order bride to bring you true happiness with your non resident big game hunting applications.
AZ402
Well-known member
Zim
Well-known member
AZ402,
Selfie of you when your HB2072 flopped in 2012? I know you were a big supporter of that.
Selfie of you when your HB2072 flopped in 2012? I know you were a big supporter of that.
AZ402
Well-known member
Good one!!! You might want to research my thoughts on HB2072.
Zim
Well-known member
Or perhaps a selfie from the future after the resulting increase in poaching? See Utah poaching rates since their DWR started screwing DIY hunters during the last 10 years. There is a price that will be paid.
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