Another Free Speech Issue on Campus

[Nemont]

Ward Churchill is a U of Col. prof. who wrote an essay called "Some People Push Back". He wrote this the day after the 9/11 attacks. In it he basically says those killed in the 9/11 attacks deserved it. That they were all "little Eichmanns". Here is a link to the essay: SOME PEOPLE PUSH BACK

He says, and I am paraphrasing, that because of U.S. foreign policy that we are all acceptable targets and all of us engaged in business are guilty of oppression. That the 9/11 hijackers were driven by desperation.

Mr. Churchill may now be fired from his job because of this controversy. Just to stir the pot a little what do you guys think? Is this acceptable under academic freedom, or freedom of speech or should the guy be fired?

School May Fire Professor for 9/11 Comment

Thu Feb 3,10:11 PM ET U.S. National - AP

By CATHERINE TSAI, Associated Press Writer

AURORA, Colo. - University of Colorado administrators Thursday took the first steps toward a possible dismissal of a professor who likened World Trade Center victims to a notorious Nazi.

Interim Chancellor Phil DiStefano ordered a 30-day review of Ward Churchill's speeches and writings to determine if the professor overstepped his boundaries of academic freedom and whether that should be grounds for dismissal.

Also Thursday, the Board of Regents issued an apology for Churchill's remarks at a meeting and voted to support the university's review of Churchill.

The raucous meeting drew dozens of protesters who back Churchill; at least two were arrested for disrupting the meeting and another was led away in handcuffs.

The regents refused to take public comment at their meeting, prompting an outcry from some of the 35 students who carried signs reading, "Protect academic freedom" and "Witch hunt." About a dozen professors also attended.

"I wish the regents had agreed to take some public comments," said law professor Barbara Bintliff, chairwoman of the Boulder Faculty Assembly. "Discussion and debate is what a university is all about."

Gov. Bill Owens issued a written statement saying he deplored the behavior of some of the students at the meeting, and that their behavior underscored the "culture of violence" that can be spawned by essays such as Churchill's.

Owens has called for Churchill's firing.

The furor erupted last month after Churchill was invited to speak at Hamilton College in upstate New York. Campus officials discovered an essay and follow-up book by Churchill in which he said the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks were a response to a history of American abuses abroad, particularly against indigenous peoples.

Among other things, he said those killed in the trade center were "little Eichmanns," a reference to Adolf Eichmann, who organized Nazi plans to exterminate Jews. The college canceled Churchill's appearance, citing death threats and concerns about security.

University officials have previously condemned Churchill's comments but defended his right to express them. University President Elizabeth Hoffman declined to comment Thursday on Churchill's future.

Churchill, whose pickup truck was vandalized with swastikas in front of his Boulder home sometime late Tuesday, has promised to sue the school if he is removed.

Earlier Thursday, the state Senate passed a resolution denouncing Churchill's comments as "evil and inflammatory." The nonbinding resolution was identical to one passed Wednesday by the House.

Democratic state Sen. Peter Groff cast the lone "no" vote, saying he disagreed with Churchill but that the resolution provides him with undeserved attention and attacks free speech.

 

[Mojave]

As far as I am concerned that's the beauty of freedom of speech - that it even applies to idiots. That's half the point. I feel he had every right to say what he said.

That said, the University is a business. They should be allowed to fire anyone who they feel is going to damage their business - commercialism is what makes America great too.

 

[Nemont]

Mo,

Good answer You should be a politician.


I have spent a lot of time in Helena, MT when our legislature is doing their thing and one of the Senators I have worked with told me this:


" Just remember this about politicians: on any given issue some people are for it and some people are against it and the politician is for the people".


Nemont

 

[A-con]

I wonder what they would do if a professor came out and said the nazis were right and the jews deserved what they got ? Would they fire him ?

 

[danr55]

A-Con.. Probably right after the tarred and feathered him.. unless the college was sponsored by the White Knights of the Klu Klux Klan.

That would be a seriously stupid remark. No one deserves to have the entire race eliminated just because you want their power and property.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Unless he is being fired for being too stupid to teach, he should keep his job. He shouldn't be fired for expressing his opinion.

 

[MattK]

A-Con- I could be mistaken but I believe there were professors (and I can't remember where, I'll try to get the information) that said the Holocaust never happened. I've also heard of professors saying the Holocaust was propaganda to get the US into WWII. There's been a lot worse said in both directions on almost any issue. I hate to say this but he has the right to say what he wants (although there is not always freedom of speech, ie. you can't yell fire in a crowded room when there is no fire.) The University or place of employment has guidelines that all employees must follow. If there are grounds they have the ability to let him go (harder if he is tenured).

 

[Ten Bears]

I would say, if he used his position/title/whatever to further the publication or desimination of his works, then he should be let go. If he is writing on his own time, and without reference to his scholastic station, it should matter not to the school.

 

[A-con]

I say "Cane em" but I'm just an uneducated redneck.

 

[MattK]

TB- I think it depends on what his "expertise" is... From the sounds of the article, not much. However, I have been to guest lectures that I walked out thinking the professor was a complete idiot. A lot of the teaching has to stay within boundaries; but, those boundaries are very very loose in most cases (freedom of thought). There was a professor that was teaching a class on the proper way to spike a tree and giving examples. He was an environmental studies professor. He was only let go after he was caught actually spiking a tree. He was a definite wing nut from what I've been told (I never took any of those classes).

 

[danr55]

I can tell that most of you have never sat through an entire semester in a class with an opinionated professor.. They will bend and twist whatever facts are available to further thier agenda. Some of them get down right obnoxious about things.. One of those things was the holocaust.. Only it wasn't from the point of view of the anti-semite. He put the number killed at closer to 9 million and had the Germans eating the flesh of the Jews and Gypsys that were murdered. So it goes both ways.

Matt, For your information... The first time I heard the crap about "No holocaust" was from George Lincoln Rockwell, the former head of the American Nazi Party. He made part of a speech at San Diego State College. He claimed that the holocaust was all a publicity stunt and a young man who's grandparents were killed in the publicity stunt knocked him on his butt. He couldn't reach the microphone from the laying down position.

 

[MattK]

Danr- Do you recall when it was that the "there was no holocaust" started spreading. I believe I heard about it in the 1980's. My grandfather has pictures from Germany during WWII. I don't know who said it but they were full of crap. Those pictures are about the worst thing I've ever seen.

 

[Erik in AK]

OK...back to Nemont's question: Should Ward Churchill be fired from the University of Colorado for comparing the 9/11 victims to the mastermind of the "Final Solution"?

Hmmmm lemme think a moment......Nope?
As much of a chimp as I think this dweeb is he should not be fired. His statements were deliberately inflammatory and distinctly anti-American, and in my opinion calculated to draw attention to himself. Nonetheless, he didn't incite any riots or advocate harm. He's covered by the Constitution on multiple levels. He's a public employee who excercised his speech on public ground. If he is fired he will win on appeal.

Like they say in Whore-lywood...All press is good press and Ivory Tower types like Ward need press to sell books which of course translates in bargaining power with their employer. Considering that he works for one of the most virulent anti-American universities in the world, he should be pretty stoked about his prospects in the next round of salary talks.

In Ward's case I get the vibe that his essay also came from the heart.... he really hates the country that feeds him, protects him and allows him to hate so openly.

 

[cjcj]

Matt where do you get these strange idea`s? [ professors/holocaust/ww2] We only found out about the "holocaust" near the end of the war.... Hey Matt remember "Pearl Harbor"? That got us into WW11

 

[MattK]

cjcj- I hope you're kidding. We declared war after Pearl Harbor but the 1st American in uniform died in Germany August 17, 1940. As soon as Britian was attacked, we were in the war. We had been gearing up well before we declared war. As far as the Holocaust, there are some reports we knew about it in the early, early parts of the War (well before we declared war). I guess it "brought it home" to me after seeing my grandfather's pictures.

 

[JoseCuervo]

CJ,

I am surprised you can't remember the history of WW2. I am surprised you didn't serve during that war...... The whole flippin' world knew what was going on in Poland in '39.

 

[cjcj]

You guys can "claim" whatever date you want but the facts are facts.....now your going back to Poland?..Gunner when the Germans invaded poland in 1939 the United States openly declared NEUTRALITY...................Matt "gearing up" isn`t the same as Going to war.....Matt you made another off-the-wall statement about professors saying we used the Holocaust as an excuse for going to war [total bullshit] You always seem to get your facts WRONG. I have to go along with the other guys... you should ask for a refund. |oo |oo...If a professor told me that [as you claim you heard] I would have put him in his place in about 2 seconds. did you? no you believe whatever liberal crap that the teacher tells you. |oo

 

[guppie9]

cjcj...i usually agree and respect what you say, but I think you are WAY overreacting here. All Matt said was that he had HEARD of professors saying this. He was using it as an example of stupid things that professors had said. DanR also backed him up by saying that he had seen it done at a university. He NEVER said that it was true and he NEVER said that one of his professors had said that.

I could be mistaken but I believe there were professors (and I can't remember where, I'll try to get the information) that said the Holocaust never happened. I've also heard of professors saying the Holocaust was propaganda to get the US into WWII.

I tend to believe Matt and DanR on this one. I had some VERY opinionated professors in college and you DO NOT disagree with them under any cirumstances. I had one friend who did just that thing and was kicked out of our program. I openly disagreed with one of my professors and was placed on probation by the department heads. You are basically told that it is OK to have differing opinions, but you need to keep them to yourselves during classtime. Maybe the reason that college students are so opinionated and causing trouble is because they are being censored inside the classroom. Just a thought.

BTW, I am NOT saying ALL colleges and universities are like this, but that was my experience.

 

[MattK]

guppie9- thanks for explaining it to cjcj, I've tried but it seems almost impossible. We did declare neutrality at one point in time but it is documented that the 1st US soldier was killed in Germany (in uniform) in August 17, 1940. There are also many documents saying we knew what Hitler had been doing well before that. When a uniformed soldier dies in a war backing one side, we are no longer neutral. We backed England.

cjcj- I can tell no one need give you a refund as you never went. I'm wondering about grade school?!

 

[Erik in AK]

Matt,
Was the soldier killed in August 1940 wearing an American uniform? I bet not.

Before some of you get too spun-up about why-when-how the U.S. got into WWII you need to go back and reaquaint yourselves with the national mindset at the time.

The generation that fought WWI was in power and the common sentiment was the U.S. should not get involved in "another European war". Although by '39 the New Deal had put the brakes on the Depression poverty was still rampant. Hell, in 1939 2/3rds of American homes were without running water.

Even though he realized that U.S. involvement was inevitable, FDR could not afford to risk his domestic agenda by being publically hawkish. His intirim response was to support our allies (Britain mainly) by sending milions of tons of supplies. He campaigned on a platform of neutrality because America wanted a President who would focus on fixing our domestic situation. FDR probably got detailed briefings about the horror imposed by the Nazi's but he could not and would not go to war until public opinion made it feasible. According to the Merchant Marine website, from September 1939 right up to the attack on Pearl Harbor, Germany sunk or seized 19 American vessels and killed 194 sailors in the Atlantic alone. Not even the loss of our cargo ships by U-boats was enough to rouse public support for American involvement. It was going to take a direct attack.

Gunner "everybody" did not know what was going on in Poland in 1939. Mass media was not what is is today (obviously). We had no American reporters in continental Europe before D-day and American politics in the 1930's/40's held a strong undercurrent of anti-semitism. Sadly, the plight of european Jews and the holocaust, in and of themselves, were not sufficient justification for the U.S. to declare war.

again the issue here is whether or not Prof. Churchill should get fired for comparing the 9/11 victims to Adolf Eichmann