AK to Restrict DIY NR Black Bear Hunters

[MNHunter]

From Alex Hoover at Hunt The West:

Alaska Sets Stage to Restrict Do-It-Yourself Nonresident Bear Hunting
November 16, 2010.

Citing concerns about black bear numbers in some parts of Southeast Alaska, the Alaska Board of Game has adopted a drawing permit hunt for nonresident black bear hunters who do not hunt with guides.

If you've been thinking about a do-it-yourself Alaska bear hunt, such as the one I'll be doing on Prince of Wales island in June, 2011, you'll want to be aware of this.

Hunters who employ a guide are not affected by the new regulation.

Department of Fish and Game staff provided data that apparently showed a significant increase in black bear harvest over the past decade was attributed to nonresident hunters — apparently we're highly-proficient killing machines. In a few parts of Southeast Alaska, harvests and sightings of black bears have declined, possibly indicating local declines in populations.

Although the drawing permit hunt applies to all of Southeast except Unit 4 (Admiralty-Baranof-Chichagof Islands) and Unit 5 (Yakutat), the Board’s action allows the Department flexibility to restrict harvest only in those areas where conservation concerns exist.

The drawing permit hunt will go into effect in 2012 – 2013 hunting season

 

[----]

Who's got the over/under on how many angry emails Fin gets?

 

[Big Fin]

Who's got the over/under on how many angry emails Fin gets?

One already.

More BS. If they are going to do this, why would it just be for non-guided hunters. Another form of subsidy for a chosen industry. They already force us to use guides of sheep, goat, and brown bear. What next, guides for ptarmigan?

I am sure I can complain about it all I want and it will do no good. I heard this was coming, but was not sure they had passed it.

Guess that will change the spin we add to the AK spring bear hunt we will film this year. The editors will earn their money cutting out my diatribe about these kind of handout programs.

If it is about the resource, why does it only apply to non-guided hunters? I saw some small bears being checked in by guided hunters in Pburg last spring. Yet, I pass on some bears I think are not at premium age.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Think I will go kill some whitetail does tomorrow. That always makes me feel better.

 

[shoots-straight]

Maybe the independent bush pilots should get together on this thing. For every action there is a reaction.

 

[Moosie]

Are they saying people who use guides can't kill anything ?

 

[Gerald Martin]

Think I will go kill some whitetail does tomorrow. That always makes me feel better

I hear you there Randy. Right now I'd trade my elk tag for a whitetail doe tag. Doe tag numbers were cut way back this year and I didn't get one.

 

[icb12]

— apparently we're highly-proficient killing machines. In a few parts of Southeast Alaska, harvests and sightings of black bears have declined, possibly indicating local declines in populations.

Yup, non res Kill a LOT of bears up here.

.
If it is about the resource, why does it only apply to non-guided hunters? I saw some small bears being checked in by guided hunters in Pburg last spring. Yet, I pass on some bears I think are not at premium age.

Not saying I agree with it; but the reasoning is that the guided hunters kill predominantly more mature animals and boars at that. Which I'll wager; on the whole is true. Sure; guided types will drop a few small bears every season, but a small bear in SE is still a heckuva lot bigger than any bear I've seen in the L48 Furthermore the guides in SE operate under slightly different regulations and have a vested interest in maintaining the resource that allows them to make a living; hence they tend to harvest only animals that won't adversely affect the population and overall health of the area they hunt in.
IN MY EXPERIENCE.. the ratio of clueless unguided non resident hunters to unguided non res hunters who have a clue is heavily lopsided.

If pronghorn pops were failing, and you had hundreds upon hundreds of alaskan residents like me who had absolutely no clue about antelope coming down to hunt, would you feel better if I had a guide, or not? Make sense? That's the reasoning anyway.

I WOULD like to see some sort of experience scale factored in here. For instance, hunters previously guided, able to go unguided, etc etc. However; I recognize that is a human factor that is difficult to translate across in instances like these.

Maybe the independent bush pilots should get together on this thing.

To accomplish.... what exactly? This new regulation may hurt their business a little, but not that much. I think you would find that most pilots are in support of this.. maybe "support" is the wrong term. They recognize that something needed to be done, and perhaps this isn't the best way... but it is a step in the right direction.

Are they saying people who use guides can't kill anything ?

It says if you plan to hunt with a guide, you do not need to apply for the draw tag, everything continues as it was.


Wooosah guys. It's two years away still. 2012-13 season. Not to mention no word of how many tags will be given.. etc etc. Very very early stages here. And please do come up and hunt bears; but do your homework!!

 

[Moosie]

If pronghorn pops were failing, and you had hundreds upon hundreds of alaskan residents like me who had absolutely no clue about antelope coming down to hunt, would you feel better if I had a guide, or not? Make sense? That's the reasoning anyway.

No, Actually not one bit. It's still a bunch of Hog slapping , shovel fed Bull crap.

Outfitters loby in all states and have done so successfully unfortunately. There are more and more outfitter tags and less general tags. If, infact it is the population that is under concern, limit the tags and don't put outfitter restrictions on them. If Lopes were in decline We wouldn't want to see people that Hire Outfitters not having to be put in a draw but people who don't PAY for the babysitting job to have to be put in a lotto to get one. That's slicker then deer guts on a door knob from the Lobbies in the Outfitting world. It's like many states now where you can apply for an outfitter tag and have better odds of hunting that species.

Many of us don't want to use an outfitter to hunt the wilderness of Wyoming or a Mtn Goat in AK. The reason they give us is Safety ? That's hog crap again. If I come to AK and get in a world of hurt, charge me to pay for the rescue. But quit telling me it's for my safety. Don't pee on my head and tell me it's raining here...... Fess up and tell me it's piss.

Put chocolate on a pile of Horse shit and it smells better but still is hard to swallow. If this goes through it's another chocolate covered turd.

 

[icb12]

No, Actually not one bit. It's still a bunch of Hog slapping , shovel fed Bull crap.

Outfitters loby in all states and have done so successfully unfortunately. There are more and more outfitter tags and less general tags. If, infact it is the population that is under concern, limit the tags and don't put outfitter restrictions on them. If Lopes were in decline We wouldn't want to see people that Hire Outfitters not having to be put in a draw but people who don't PAY for the babysitting job to have to be put in a lotto to get one. That's slicker then deer guts on a door knob from the Lobbies in the Outfitting world. It's like many states now where you can apply for an outfitter tag and have better odds of hunting that species.

Many of us don't want to use an outfitter to hunt the wilderness of Wyoming or a Mtn Goat in AK. The reason they give us is Safety ? That's hog crap again. If I come to AK and get in a world of hurt, charge me to pay for the rescue. But quit telling me it's for my safety. Don't pee on my head and tell me it's raining here...... Fess up and tell me it's piss.

Put chocolate on a pile of Horse shit and it smells better but still is hard to swallow. If this goes through it's another chocolate covered turd.

:shrug:

Agree with it or not man.. This is the way it came down.

He asked.. I gave the reasoning. Non res unguided hunters kill more immature animals, kill more sows. Period. Which is bad for bears. (and future business). Whether you like it, or I like it, or No one likes it; this is the veil they are going to hide behind.

I agree that making unguided hunters draw while guided hunters don't have to is lame. I'd rather see ALL non res have to apply and draw, or ALL non res have to go guided (at least once), or ALL non res (& res for that matter) pass a test on sexing and judging bears prior to actually hunting or penalties for harvesting immature bears.
But Throw politics and economics in the mix and you end up with a CF.

It is what it is.. hopefully in time it WILL be better for the bears despite the nature of it all.
I suggest if black bear hunting in Southern SE Alaska is your dream hunt, you come up in the next two years. Or alter your dream to some other portion of AK unaffected by this regulation change.

 

[shoots-straight]

Not saying I agree with it; but the reasoning is that the guided hunters kill predominantly more mature animals and boars at that. Which I'll wager; on the whole is true. Sure; guided types will drop a few small bears every season, but a small bear in SE is still a heckuva lot bigger than any bear I've seen in the L48 Furthermore the guides in SE operate under slightly different regulations and have a vested interest in maintaining the resource that allows them to make a living; hence they tend to harvest only animals that won't adversely affect the population and overall health of the area they hunt in.
IN MY EXPERIENCE.. the ratio of clueless unguided non resident hunters to unguided non res hunters who have a clue is heavily lopsided.

I don't share your same faith in the outfitting fraternity, when the resource is a concern. I find that most are in it for the short term and turning a buck. The size of bears outfitters convince their clients to shoot on TV are dinks most of the time. If this is any indication of what goes on throughtout the industry,(which is believe it to be) then I'd have to call BS on your post.

He asked.. I gave the reasoning. Non res unguided hunters kill more immature animals, kill more sows. Period. Which is bad for bears. (and future business). Whether you like it, or I like it, or No one likes it; this is the veil they are going to hide behind.

Do you have any facts to back up your statement with? A study maybe? How about a link with can go to that supports your position. Do you guide, or are you an outfitter in Alaska by chance?

 

[Moosie]

So.... are you an Outfitter or a guide ?

 

[Sytes]

That is a bummer. Maybe some of these lost outfitters of MT that are not able to compete for business and became dependant on gov't guaranteed clients - will move shop to a state (Alaska) that will give them their "welfare" clients...

B Fin will have to add a text update for his Alaska hunt on the 2010 Season discs... Haha! (J/k)...

BTW - When are we able to order the current season discs??? Christmas shopping is around the corner again!

 

[icb12]

I don't share your same faith in the outfitting fraternity, when the resource is a concern. I find that most are in it for the short term and turning a buck. The size of bears outfitters convince their clients to shoot on TV are dinks most of the time. If this is any indication of what goes on throughtout the industry,(which is believe it to be) then I'd have to call BS on your post.

Outside of SE.. I don't really have much faith in the guiding/outfitting community either. However, in my experience, IN SE, most of the guides/outfitters I've had contact with genuinely care and take effort to protect the resource. Wanton harvest isn't as rampant in SE as it is in the interior/peninsula/etc. Again, only my experience; my opinion. Take it or leave it. No skin off my back.
BTW-- You think every single bear killed ends up on TV?? AND If there is one point Randy has driven home time after time after time on this forum is how shooting for TV changes the game considerably. So many added variables. Game changer, take your shots when you get them, with success being prioritized on most TV.. I don't watch television anyway.. so I'll take your word on it.

Do you have any facts to back up your statement with? A study maybe? How about a link with can go to that supports your position. Do you guide, or are you an outfitter in Alaska by chance?

Personal Experience. Lifetime in SE. Bear hunter. Involved Hunter. Mostly informed hunter. What I relate is from my experiences and interactions with other hunters, fish and game officers, troopers, biologists, etc. Guess I should have added that disclaimer.. :shrug: Again, take it or leave it. I'd actually lose some respect for anyone that took my opinion at face value. Natural to be skeptical, I expect that. I'm only telling you what I have seen/experienced.

And no... I'm not a guide.. nor an outfitter. Though I know many.

Some interesting links, though none of them relate guided to non guided.
http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/...news.view_article&articles_id=454&issue_id=85
^POW management article
http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index.cfm?adfg=pubs.mgt
^all management reports.. select any of the black bear ones
http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/pubs/techpubs/federal_aid/survey_inven/blb05perf.pdf
^kind of a blah article... but some decent tidbits depending on how interested you are
http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/pubs/techpubs/research_pdfs/blb-kuiu04f.pdf
^ kinda cool, doesn't really help my case though.. lol
http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=harvestreports.main
^Advanced harvest reports tool Select a year and black bear and go to town. Start playing with it.

Also: call some SE guides and talk with them. Call USFS and talk to them about how guiding works in SE. Call ADF&G and talk to them.

I encourage you to become as informed as possible and formulate your own opinions. I've provided mine.

So.... are you an Outfitter or a guide ?

ummm..

Trick question.. there is no right answer. Please rewrite the question with options:
C- All of the above
D- None of the above

email me at
yourquestionsucksandifyou'vereadtheboardyouknowtheansweranyway@whatarewearguingaboutagainanyway.gov

Then I'll fill in appropriate circle completely with a #2 pencil and email it back to you.

 

[Moosie]

Email bounced back. And by the way, we're not argueing, I'm just telling you why you're wrong

Question though, So if you think all NON residents should hire an outfitter for the first time, why not make it required for Residents for their first time too ? Or does being born in AK or a move up there after 1 year make someone and instant expert ? :SHRUG:

 

[Dinkshooter]

Or does being born in AK or a move up there after 1 year make someone and instant expert ? :SHRUG:

I always notice people in Los Anchorage that shouldn't and probably don't leave the city limits. Yet I am not suppose to go sheep hunting without a guide?

 

[belly-deep]

IN MY EXPERIENCE.. the ratio of clueless unguided non resident hunters to unguided non res hunters who have a clue is heavily lopsided.

In what way is it lopsided? Because statistics show the average out of state hunter is better at what he/she does than the average in state hunter. At one point, NR hunters in portions of SW MT made up 30% of the hunters, yet they killed a bit under 40% of the elk.

 

[icb12]

Email bounced back. And by the way, we're not argueing, I'm just telling you why you're wrong

Question though, So if you think all NON residents should hire an outfitter for the first time, why not make it required for Residents for their first time too ? Or does being born in AK or a move up there after 1 year make someone and instant expert ? :SHRUG:

In all honesty.. I could get behind a proposal for residents to be required to go guided at least once for species that non residents are required to.. I think that 90% of hunters; resident or not could learn something that would benefit them in future hunts by going with a reputable guide at least once; if it is approached in the right attitude. I grew up hunting black bears from a very early age. I know enough to know what I don't know.. I could learn a lot from hunting with someone who does it for a living. I talk to enough guides to realize that I know next to nothing about a lot.

Problem lies in that there are MORE first timer non residents than residents. Most of the residents have hunted black bear before, usually many times. Most of the Non residents I have interacted with have not. Not to mention most of the first timer residents are hunting with a fellow resident who has experience bear hunting. It is all very difficult because a hardcore analysis of every harvest report a hunter has ever filled out is next to impossible. If it were possible to determine experienced hunters from inexperienced easily..... then many options could open up.

For the record.. I don't think making everyone go guided is a good solution especially in this instance. I am a big proponent of personal freedom..
However, I think that if they are going to require non residents to go guided for sheep goats etc, then residents should be required to as well. Unless of course a certain level of experience/expertise can be proven, which should be applicable to non residents as well. If a non resident can prove a level of experience or if they are hunting with someone with proven experience they should not be required to have a guide IMO . However, we can all see how this is a very subjective hypothetical system, and impractical. Even with that opinion.. you can bet your ass I'm taking advantage of the way things are.. hopefully sheep hunting next year, with a limited sheep hunting experience. Though I have the advantage of hiking out and staring at nearly unlimited numbers of sheep every summer as much as I want.. learning something every time. How many non residents get to go out all summer staring at Dall sheep, learning how to judge, etc etc. Just the same as I can go out and look at hundreds of black bears..

What do you think? What about antelope hunting.. Do you think MOST antelope hunters could learn a thing or two about antelope hunting from EliAGrimmet on this board?? Granted there are some VERY experienced hunters on here, but how bout your "average joe" (thank you Sarah :hump? I think most of us could learn something and be better hunters for it by hunting with experienced individuals.

 

[icb12]

In what way is it lopsided? Because statistics show the average out of state hunter is better at what he/she does than the average in state hunter. At one point, NR hunters in portions of SW MT made up 30% of the hunters, yet they killed a bit under 40% of the elk.

Useless statistics. 30% of hunters. What percentage guided? What percentage non res were repeat hunters? Was that 40% all dinks?

I'm not seeing how you determined that NR were better at hunting from these statistics...

My point was that your typical resident is more familiar with the resource than the typical non resident.
How many black bears have you looked at in your lifetime? Actually shot? Care to take a guess at how many I've looked at? How many I've shot? Which of us to do you think has the better grasp of what constitutes a big mature boar?
Reverse it. How many elk have you looked at? Me? I'll bet that you know waay more about elk hunting than I do, and are much better able to successfully pull off an elk hunt in Montana than I. They are all just big damn critters to me.

There's a lot more to "having a clue" than a couple useless harvest statistics. Bears especially.. they don't have the antlers as great big obvious clues...

 

[Moosie]

I am a big proponent of personal freedom..
However, I think that if they are going to require non residents to go guided for sheep goats etc, then residents should be required to as well.

I agree 100% with you on that one boss. But that crap would never fly now would it ? Just like NON-Residents shouldn't HAVE to hire a guide for a guarentee tag shouldn't fly either.

As far as learning something, why even ask a dumb question. We all learn every year. I'm sure even EliGrimmet (Our Expert) still learns every year. We should always be learning. That has nothing to do with "Having" to go with a guide to kill a bear.

Maybe AK is different but a crap load of the guides that I've seen and met are just joe shmo's trying to make some money hired by the outfitter that "knows" the actual stuff. Many are guys that couldn't find their tent if you turned them around twice.

Do you think going once and being baby sat by a guide makes that person a better hunter then someone that hunts on their OWN and is responsible for their own success ? Most people that use outfitters that don't have to are lazy A$$ Clowns.

Do you honestly believe that people going to AK to hunt bears are "FIRST TIMERS" ? My guess is that the "FIRST TIMERS" are using the guides not planning an OYOA.

 

[Moosie]

Bears especially.. they don't have the antlers as great big obvious clues...

I also agree with that. Judging bears is hard.

My point is just because someone is Local doesn't make them a better hunter and incapable. The law is gonig to be set up to benifit the outfitters though and line some pockets. That's my "beef".

I do hope the numbers stay up on bears for all of our sakes.