BigHornRam
Well-known member
Maybe the Obama's are giving us a heads up on what's to come, so we can prepare?
Leave the World Behind https://g.co/kgs/Qk9dUR
60 Minutes Wyoming Green Energy Segment
- Thread starter BigHornRam
- Start date
Leave the World Behind https://g.co/kgs/Qk9dUR
SD_Prairie_Goat
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Source?
Westelker
Well-known member
One would think with all the bullchit the solar people push, those buried parts would have made great fertilizer in a few years.
Westelker
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Westelker
Well-known member
I'm not sure who build that road into that great elk, deer and antelope country, but I'm sure if the BLM wanted to build an adjacent access road for hunters nearby, they would run into a whole lot of environmentalist against the road. Isn't most of that land checker board?
Forkyfinder
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There's a lot mixed facts, non-truths, and general inaccuracy in a lot of the replies/responses here.
There's a lot of things that make a "renewable" facility desirable from a market perspective - of course the obvious subsidies, a large initial fee for generation cost (instead of a volatile cost extracted input like nat gas/coal/nuclear), low labor cost (way less $ per mwh), maintenance/repairs can easily be done in stages without a multi-week/month "overhaul" extended duration outage.
The primary advantage not being understood/stated - the power generated from a renewable facility is primarily sold on the market "first" because of a major market advantage. Power is sold on 24 and 48 hour cylces, with generators bidding at intervals. If your input cost is essentially 0, your bid on the power can be "0" as the low bid matches the second lowest bid in terms of the power price. I.e. Market demand is 100 watts, renewable facilities bid 0 $ per watt for 35 watts (plus they get a CREDIT- called the production tax credit - for producing), so actual nominal "daily" production cost is negative, natural gas bids 6$ per watt for 35 watts, nuclear bids 8$ per watt for 35 watts, and coal bids 10$ per watt for 35 watts (140 watts total) then the coal generator gets entirely left out from selling power and nuclear sells only 30 of 35 watts they have available. It becomes really tough to compete when the renewable output might be 0 or as much as 100% of the grid in places like Texas on ideal wind days with low demand - so the traditional generators get on/off market days because of market conditions. There are no contracts with mines, pipelines, gas fields, railroads. or major labor unions. Essentially, renewable facilities don't really pay a penalty for variable generation output - there competitors do because of how the rules of the market game.
It's hard to really say/argue what the true long term best overall cost of a lot of things are over the life of the project, especially considering upgrading the system down the road. One thing is certain, we will never be "free" of fossil fuels or traditional mined product generation.
There's a lot of things that make a "renewable" facility desirable from a market perspective - of course the obvious subsidies, a large initial fee for generation cost (instead of a volatile cost extracted input like nat gas/coal/nuclear), low labor cost (way less $ per mwh), maintenance/repairs can easily be done in stages without a multi-week/month "overhaul" extended duration outage.
The primary advantage not being understood/stated - the power generated from a renewable facility is primarily sold on the market "first" because of a major market advantage. Power is sold on 24 and 48 hour cylces, with generators bidding at intervals. If your input cost is essentially 0, your bid on the power can be "0" as the low bid matches the second lowest bid in terms of the power price. I.e. Market demand is 100 watts, renewable facilities bid 0 $ per watt for 35 watts (plus they get a CREDIT- called the production tax credit - for producing), so actual nominal "daily" production cost is negative, natural gas bids 6$ per watt for 35 watts, nuclear bids 8$ per watt for 35 watts, and coal bids 10$ per watt for 35 watts (140 watts total) then the coal generator gets entirely left out from selling power and nuclear sells only 30 of 35 watts they have available. It becomes really tough to compete when the renewable output might be 0 or as much as 100% of the grid in places like Texas on ideal wind days with low demand - so the traditional generators get on/off market days because of market conditions. There are no contracts with mines, pipelines, gas fields, railroads. or major labor unions. Essentially, renewable facilities don't really pay a penalty for variable generation output - there competitors do because of how the rules of the market game.
It's hard to really say/argue what the true long term best overall cost of a lot of things are over the life of the project, especially considering upgrading the system down the road. One thing is certain, we will never be "free" of fossil fuels or traditional mined product generation.
Bow Bullet
Well-known member
Generally true if you're dealing in an organized market but, except for Energy Imbalance, the western grid is still primarily a bilateral market. That's why SM/C needs the transmission from Wyoming to the Las Vegas area to be able to deliver to the California market.
WYelker
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No this was way south of the checker board. This spot happens to be state land. But the roads were built across a bunch of BLM as well. There is checker board to the north but they have built this road down through Colorado and Utah as well. On the BLM they tried to follow existing utility right of ways old 2 tracks etc. It has been a mess of a project... This is a transmission line that is going to lead to thousand 10s of thousands of wind mills across WY, NW Colorado and Utah.
WYelker
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Don't worry they have solved the wind blade recycle issue. They are excited for this solution...
They are taking the wind farm blades and burning them for energy to make concrete....
Yep that is great green energy. Burning Fiberglass has to be awesome for the environment.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cement...nd-power-faces-recycling-headache-11650967200
They are taking the wind farm blades and burning them for energy to make concrete....
Yep that is great green energy. Burning Fiberglass has to be awesome for the environment.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cement...nd-power-faces-recycling-headache-11650967200
Nick87
Well-known member
Interesting.
SAJ-99
Well-known member
This seems like a reasonable idea, albeit not ideal. Concrete does just appear in the back of the mixer by pixie fairy magic.
Nick87
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Nope comes out of an overhead chute usually.
SAJ-99
Well-known member
But also not operated by pixies.
BigHornRam
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Making cement is not the most environmentally friendly process out there. You can always see a smogy haze billowing out of the Trident plant near Three Forks when passing though there on I 90.
Forkyfinder
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Now powered by solar panels
BigHornRam
Well-known member
They are burning the ground up blades to make clinker as part of the process to make cement. They use old tires for the energy source to burn the fiberglass blades.
Edit. They are burning the blades to run the kilns.
"Cement manufacturing is one of the largest sources of carbon-dioxide emissions. Cement’s key ingredient clinker is made in kilns that burn and mix ingredients in an intense 1,450-Celsius heat. Kilns typically burn conventional fossil fuels, but companies are increasingly using waste such as plastics and car tires—and old wind-turbine blades—instead. They say incinerating waste keeps it from going to landfill sites and lowers emissions."
What is Cement Clinker? | Datis Export Group
If you wanted to know the answer to What is Cement Clinker? You may find this article useful. Datis Export Group is a supplier and exporter of Cement Clinker.
datis-inc.com
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BigHornRam
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That offsets burning the tires making it carbon neutral.Now powered by solar panels
SAJ-99
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No doubt. It requires a ton of energy. Concrete and steel both. Those two are probably the biggest reason why coal can't go away completely. There are no great answers to our need for energy.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
What about this part of the 60 Minutes segment?
That was the part I found the most interesting and least discussed. Is it possible to do this economically? It would make coal or nat gas generated electricity carbon neutral.
That was the part I found the most interesting and least discussed. Is it possible to do this economically? It would make coal or nat gas generated electricity carbon neutral.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Windmill and solar panel manufacturing requires a lot of coal power too.
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