5 shots is a waste..

[Redmt]

I'm going back to my 3 shot load check. I sent 5 at 100 yds checking a new .223 load. At first I thought 2 went wild until checking the back of the target. To be dead honest, it's off of a weighted Lead Sled. I do not shoot that good.

 

[Nicoli7153]

I like the X bags better than the sled

 

[Forkyfinder]

I like the X bags better than the sled

Me too. Found with bags and a bipod i could shoot a lot better than the slead.

 

[BackofBeyond]

Big difference between what your gun will inherently shoot, and what your gun will shoot with you behind it.

Statistically, you're 5 shot group is way to small to show what is actually going on. If your gun that good, as in will routinely shoot a .5 MOA group, or (more realistically) your gun is a 1.5 MOA shooter, but it just tossed those 5 into a .5 MOA group? A 30 shot group will get you 99% certainty...

 

[Redmt]

Interesting, I have zero movement with the sled.
I borrowed a buddies enough times that I went and bought my own. The new one is about 1/2 the quality of the original version. Every corner that Caldwell could cut and trim was done. The Chinese version is a pitiful clone to the original. Caldwell should be ashamed.

 

[Redmt]

Big difference between what your gun will inherently shoot, and what your gun will shoot with you behind it.

Statistically, you're 5 shot group is way to small to show what is actually going on. If your gun that good, as in will routinely shoot a .5 MOA group, or (more realistically) your gun is a 1.5 MOA shooter, but it just tossed those 5 into a .5 MOA group? A 30 shot group will get you 99% certainty...

I wanted to make sure they all went the same direction. There's a 55gr test on the same target that is pitiful.
I figure if I take shooting ability out of the equation then you can see if the load will even hit.
The x shot was a scope check with a random factory load. The other 5 were 55gr. TTSX

 

[howl]

A lot goes on from the time the primer ignites until the bullet leaves the barrel. Being steady before tripping the trigger doesn't mean consistent after. Consistency makes small groups regular.

Bulls bag front, rabbit ear rear for light sporters.

 

[David658]

Big difference between what your gun will inherently shoot, and what your gun will shoot with you behind it.

Statistically, you're 5 shot group is way to small to show what is actually going on. If your gun that good, as in will routinely shoot a .5 MOA group, or (more realistically) your gun is a 1.5 MOA shooter, but it just tossed those 5 into a .5 MOA group? A 30 shot group will get you 99% certainty...

We don't do statistics, we shoot.

With my basic statistical understanding, neither 3 or 5 shots is a very conclusive answer from a statistical perspective. Working on sighting in, 3 is likely enough for scope movement, but as one gets closer, more rounds are needed for precision, less if minute-of-elk is satisfactory. I am guessing that in working a load, 5 shots would be the minimum, of course 30 is better. But just guessing, since I have always shot factory. Now that I am starting to reload, that'll change...

David
NM

 

[BrentD]

My vote is for 2-shot groups. Lots of them.

Didn't we just discuss this recently?

 

[BackofBeyond]

We don't do statistics, we shoot.

You’re right, we shoot - but we shoot to gather data and then we make decisions based on that data.

Where statistics comes in is if we make a decision based solely on that 3 or 5 shot group we’re making a decision based on data that is about 30% of the entire picture.

So go ahead, keep your 3 shot groups and hope you maintain “minute of elk.” I’ll stay over here in the real world where silly things like physics and math still govern even in the world of hunting.

 

[Redmt]

I'm not sure I understand all of the comments, or reason behind them. It really doesn't matter in this case. 10 in one hole isn't much different than 10 in a pie pan to the hunter. I'm a hunter, moment of elk is great for elk. Not so much for squirrels. Anything inside a 1-1 1/2" group at 100 yds is fantastic for what I shoot. Some of my loads won't make minute of garbage can lid. The ones I posted the picture of were more in amazement! NEVER have I ever loaded anything with those results and no way in hell do I shoot that well. I posted it more as "can you believe that shit" than some sort of accomplishment. I ain't that good.

 

[David658]

You’re right, we shoot - but we shoot to gather data and then we make decisions based on that data.

Where statistics comes in is if we make a decision based solely on that 3 or 5 shot group we’re making a decision based on data that is about 30% of the entire picture.

So go ahead, keep your 3 shot groups and hope you maintain “minute of elk.” I’ll stay over here in the real world where silly things like physics and math still govern even in the world of hunting.

Once one arrives at a load, and considers the scope zeroed, there should be a lot of range time. Now the real world will creep in, if we are paying attention. I would hope there would be a lot of confirmation, consternation, or confusion, depending on whether or not those three and five shot strings were representative.

And of course, they ain't.

Lots of range time is essential. Sadly, most hunters (nobody on this forum, of course) will shoot half a box before the season starts and call it good if the pie plate gets a hole or three. All the statistics in all the books will matter nothing if the shooter doesn't practice, since the jerk behind the trigger is the primary source of variation in the whole scenario.

David
NM

 

[Redmt]

I'm one of luckier people. I get to shoot every day if I'm up to it and the weather permits. Whether I'm on foot, on an ATV or the truck, there's a loaded rifle with me. I've been known to take one in the backhoe at times. Yup I get lots of practice.

 

[perma]

Interesting thread. With impeccable timing.. Giving me things to think about.

 

[rjthehunter]

Shooting off a lead sled is never a great idea when working up a load imo...

A lead sled slows the recoil and can change the harmonics of a barrel due to the weight added to stop recoil. You should shoot off bags, or a rest that allows the gun to recoil to best simulate a hunting scenario.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I use three 5 shot groups to work up loads. Still on the iffy statistical power, but way better than a single 3 shot group. You can also overlay the three groups and get a 15 shot group with a fairly good idea of normal distribution. I hand load because I enjoy it and want to push for better than box ammo accuracy. If I was just using single 3 shot groups, no need to handload - buying boxed ammo will be just as predictable and way less work.

 

[BrentD]

I use three 5 shot groups to work up loads. Still on the iffy statistical power, but way better than a single 3 shot group. You can also overlay the three groups and get a 15 shot group with a fairly good idea of normal distribution. I hand load because I enjoy it and want to push for better than box ammo accuracy. If I was just using single 3 shot groups, no need to handload - buying boxed ammo will be just as predictable and way less work.

You might consider 10 or 15 2-shot groups instead. Lots more statistical power with less opportunity for demonic intrusions, and less influential when one does manage to slip in.

 

[VikingsGuy]

You might consider 10 or 15 2-shot groups instead. Lots more statistical power with less opportunity for demonic intrusions, and less influential when one does manage to slip in.

With basic normal distribution for most purposes, the goal is always to be in the 30-300 sample window, but I make certain accommodations to get to 50% fewer rounds with sufficient power for my chosen goals.

 

[BrentD]

With basic normal distribution for most purposes, the goal is always to be in the 30-300 sample window, but I make certain accommodations to get to 50% fewer rounds with sufficient power for my chosen goals.

I'll wager you will have more power using 2-shot groups than 5 shot groups for any given number of shots fired. 2-d random distributions are technically Reyleigh (and I may have misspelled that). But bivariate normal is probably sufficient with room to spare.

 

[Redmt]

To me it is a matter of $$. Loading up 20-30 or more at nearly a buck a bullet isn't feasible for me. I load up groups of 5 and if by 3 I don't have a decent group I move on to the next load. I this particular case, I sent 2 and was happy. I sent the 3rd and couldn't find it. I sent the last 2 to see wtf was going on. It wasn't until looking at the back of the target was I able to see where they went. I was pretty damn proud of it, still am, to develop a load that gave that group.