30 Day Background Check

[Otto Matic]

To an earlier point - we are wasting time on things that don’t move the needle either way.

DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner!

Mr. Guy, none of your bloviating or posturing is worth a "tinker's dam" in the grand scheme of things.

 

[noharleyyet]

 

[DouglasR]

They do attempt other methods, but guns are an order of magnitude more efficient. I think the evidence is building that restricting access to firearms is going to reduce suicides. A waiting period could give many troubled people the hassle they need to rethink things.



I wholly reject that. Many suicide survivors regret their attempt and are glad that they failed. Waiting periods would certainly reduce spontaneous suicides.

This is where the middle ground is. 2/3 of gun deaths are suicides. By reducing that number we could take away one of the antis biggest talking points.

Last year a friend at work took his own life.
He had a beautiful family and home.
He beat me to work every damn day.
as per usual, no one saw it coming.
I think about it multiple times a week.

I’ve never thought
“if only he didn’t have that gun”
The gun didn’t do it.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Give me a percentage of crime that will be stopped due to a 30 day background check...

WBUR (NPR Boston) reported that in fact over the time period that Massachusetts implemented it's gun licensing laws gun crime has actually increased. Part of it definitely has to do with Boston being 30 min from the NH border, but it's definitely illustrative of your point.

Per previous posters, a 30 day background check might save a few lives, esp cops who have to go retrieve the illegally sold guns. I don't think it's possible to come up with an accurate statistic.

Gun crimes increase in Massachusetts despite tough gun laws

Massachusetts has a national reputation as a bastion of gun control, but crimes and injuries related to firearms have risen — sometimes dramatically — since the state passed a comprehensive package of gun laws in 1998. Murders committed with firearms have risen significantly, aggravated assaults...

www.boston.com

Mass. Gun Crimes Rise Despite Strict Laws

Statistics show that since 1998, the number of gun-related crimes committed in the state has risen.

www.wbur.org

 

[FI460]

Last year a friend at work took his own life.
He had a beautiful family and home.
He beat me to work every damn day.
as per usual, no one saw it coming.
I think about it multiple times a week.

I’ve never thought
“if only he didn’t have that gun”
The gun didn’t do it.

Of course the gun didn't do it, and likely in that scenario in which I assume your friend was already a gun owner it could not have been prevented.

But I had a friend in high school who got in an argument with his parents. He stormed off to his room, the parents went out to run errands.

My friend took the pistol from his dads nightstand and shot himself.

Now, I know safe storage laws aren't the same as a waiting period, but they're both minimally invasive regulations that would reduce some (not all) gun deaths. No solution is perfect, but many solutions would be both palatable and impactful.

 

[DouglasR]

Of course the gun didn't do it, and likely in that scenario in which I assume your friend was already a gun owner it could not have been prevented.

But I had a friend in high school who got in an argument with his parents. He stormed off to his room, the parents went out to run errands.

My friend took the pistol from his dads nightstand and shot himself.

Now, I know safe storage laws aren't the same as a waiting period, but they're both minimally invasive regulations that would reduce some (not all) gun deaths. No solution is perfect, but many solutions would be both palatable and impactful.

If your loved one kills themself and you think
“If only our society would’ve implemented a 30 day waiting period they’d still be here”
You’re completely out of your mind and making excuses.


Are you saying if you have high school aged children in the house you should have your firearms locked away from them?

telling someone what to do with their tools in their own home is minimally invasive?

 

[VikingsGuy]

DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner!

Mr. Guy, none of your bloviating or posturing is worth a "tinker's dam" in the grand scheme of things.

I find actually understanding the law to be a handy thing for any citizen.

 

[FI460]

If your loved one kills themself and you think
“If only our society would’ve implemented a 30 day waiting period they’d still be here”
You’re completely out of your mind and making excuses.


Are you saying if you have high school aged children in the house you should have your firearms locked away from them?

telling someone what to do with their tools in their own home is minimally invasive?

His father makes no excuses. He locks his guns up now.

You'll find nowhere on the world wide web where I ever mentioned a 30 day waiting period. Thats ridiculous. 3 days? 7 days? That seems fine. The first half dozen firearms I bought I had to wait 10 days for. I don't feel that I could bring a case for a violation of my 2A rights as there are no damages I could claim. Did I want them the day I passed money over the counter? Yes. Did it legitimately inconvenience me? No.

I still struggle with mandatory storage requirements. I had open access to firearms as a teenager and appreciated the heck out of it. I was an absolutist for many years, arguing that the government had no business telling me what to do with my property. Now, I think that there is no legal basis for that argument, and would prefer nuanced governance over the appeasement of ideologues from either side.

My guns are in a safe when they're not on me. I'm no less safe than when I had a pistol tucked between the mattress and the box spring.

 

[DouglasR]

His father makes no excuses. He locks his guns up now.

You'll find nowhere on the world wide web where I ever mentioned a 30 day waiting period. Thats ridiculous. 3 days? 7 days? That seems fine. The first half dozen firearms I bought I had to wait 10 days for. I don't feel that I could bring a case for a violation of my 2A rights as there are no damages I could claim. Did I want them the day I passed money over the counter? Yes. Did it legitimately inconvenience me? No.

I still struggle with mandatory storage requirements. I had open access to firearms as a teenager and appreciated the heck out of it. I was an absolutist for many years, arguing that the government had no business telling me what to do with my property. Now, I think that there is no legal basis for that argument, and would prefer nuanced governance over the appeasement of ideologues from either side.

My guns are in a safe when they're not on me. I'm no less safe than when I had a pistol tucked between the mattress and the box spring.

For the record I wasn’t trying to say you’re out of you mind I was saying the person in my hypothetical scenario is.

first of all, the story you shared sounds awful, I want to give your friends dad a hug and I’m sorry for you loss.

Second, the gun being left out sounds like a textbook excuse to me.
I bet there was a bigger issue going on.
maybe some precursors?
Maybe the family should’ve acted on their own accord in their own home in a free nation and locked up or removed the firearms from said home.
But I don’t think the guvment should tell you that you’ve gotta lock them up.

I just don’t understand the suicide talking point

 

[Nick87]

Similarly, how many lawful possessors are saved by getting a gun at 3 days who wouldn’t at 7?

I dont understand why in this day in age we even need 3. I'm not disagreeing but again if it becomes 7 that will become 21 so on so forth, dont you think?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I dont understand why in this day in age we even need 3. I'm not disagreeing but again if it becomes 7 that will become 21 so on so forth, dont you think?

Likely. I think folks in politics grossly underestimate the scale of the gun industry.

MA, has had to back off their license program at least twice, because they just couldn't handle the volume. For instance renewal periods from every year to every five years. Admin just couldn't deal with the paperwork.

I'm not saying that people will be intentionally slow, I just think the problems causing a 7 day delay likely won't be resolved in 30 days.

 

[buckbull]

The table above is total instances, if you divided it by unique individuals it would be quite a bit smaller, but HOLY SMOKES IL.

Almost 60% ratio of background checks / population.

Illinois is high because all gun owners have to pay for a FOID card (firearm owners identification) that allow them to possess and purchase firearms and ammunition. Without the card, managed by the state police, you cant buy ammo. The card is good for 5 years. A background check is required to get the card, which is probably accounting for alot of the requests. By state law they are suppose process FOID requests within 30 days. I submitted my renewal in October of 2020 and still waiting for it.

 

[Racrawfo1013]

They do attempt other methods, but guns are an order of magnitude more efficient. I think the evidence is building that restricting access to firearms is going to reduce suicides. A waiting period could give many troubled people the hassle they need to rethink things.



I wholly reject that. Many suicide survivors regret their attempt and are glad that they failed. Waiting periods would certainly reduce spontaneous suicides.

This is where the middle ground is. 2/3 of gun deaths are suicides. By reducing that number we could take away one of the antis biggest talking points.

Once again I think as a society we need to understand why we are mentally unstable as a nation more so now than in the past that has increased suicides. I wholeheartedly disagree that you create another law or hurdle for sane individuals to hop through because someone decides to use a more efficient tool to take their lives. It’s not the root cause of the issue. I don’t understand why people think it’s right to limit others for a small percentage. That’s not proper root cause analysis. It is bandaiding the issue versus working to actually help the people.

 

[brownbear932008]

I dont understand why in this day in age we even need 3. I'm not disagreeing but again if it becomes 7 that will become 21 so on so forth, dont you think?

The problem is often wading through red tape to confirm a clearance on a sale. If you have ever dealt with court records and arrest records you will quickly understanding everything isn't always black and white and often times require extensive research involving multiple agencies sometimes. This takes time!

I also feel the ball is dropped way to often by government agencies to update said information and maybe a better nationwide system could be put into place. This is only one prong of the checks though and doesn't even touch the mess of mental health records. All states are definitely not equal as to how well their systems perform. I've dealt with some jurisdictions that I swear have probably 70% of the arrest/court records incomplete.

 

[Nick87]

The problem is often wading through red tape to confirm a clearance on a sale. If you have ever dealt with court records and arrest records you will quickly understanding everything isn't always black and white and often times require extensive research involving multiple agencies sometimes. This takes time!

I also feel the ball is dropped way to often by government agencies to update said information and maybe a better nationwide system could be put into place. This is only one prong of the checks though and doesn't even touch the mess of mental health records. All states are definitely not equal as to how well their systems perform. I've dealt with some jurisdictions that I swear have probably 70% of the arrest/court records incomplete.

Likely. I think folks in politics grossly underestimate the scale of the gun industry.

MA, has had to back off their license program at least twice, because they just couldn't handle the volume. For instance renewal periods from every year to every five years. Admin just couldn't deal with the paperwork.

I'm not saying that people will be intentionally slow, I just think the problems causing a 7 day delay likely won't be resolved in 30 days.

Government/politicians

 

[Otto Matic]

I find actually understanding the law to be a handy thing for any citizen.

....and you still haven't "moved the needle".

There are 10 laws that, if followed expressly, circumvent the necessity of any other laws being written....BUT....time and history have proven that human frailty prevails and we all fail.
Then man comes on the scene and thinks he can write additional laws that are better than what God came up with.
Yeah.
Right!

 

[VikingsGuy]

....and you still haven't "moved the needle".

There are 10 laws that, if followed expressly, circumvent the necessity of any other laws being written....BUT....time and history have proven that human frailty prevails and we all fail.
Then man comes on the scene and thinks he can write additional laws that are better than what God came up with.
Yeah.
Right!

And the bible can't agree on the exact reading of those ten . . . . Are you a Deuteronomy 5 guy or an Exodus 20 guy?

And worth noting the 2A (with whatever meaning we give it) is one such imperfect fragile man-made attempt - so not surprising its meaning is not clear.

 

[sapperJ24]

For the record I wasn’t trying to say you’re out of you mind I was saying the person in my hypothetical scenario is.

first of all, the story you shared sounds awful, I want to give your friends dad a hug and I’m sorry for you loss.

I just don’t understand the suicide talking point

This is my understanding of the talking point: "Men who owned handguns were eight times more likely than men who didn’t to die of self-inflicted gunshot wounds. Women who owned handguns were more than 35 times more likely than women who didn't to kill themselves with a gun."

Caveat, this study just looked at California and was supported by the Fund for a Safer Future . https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-n...associated-with-much-higher-suicide-risk.html

Of general note, "Women attempt suicide more frequently than men but have fewer completed suicides, largely because the means they tend to use (e.g., poisons) are less lethal than those men tend to use (e.g., guns or hanging)."

Of course there are many covariates that result in suicide and suicide attempts, access to handguns being just one.

 

[Otto Matic]

And the bible can't agree on the exact reading of those ten . . . . Are you a Deuteronomy 5 guy or an Exodus 20 guy?

I'm a, "don't argue with God" guy.

And worth noting the 2A (with whatever meaning we give it) is one such imperfect fragile man-made attempt - so not surprising its meaning is not clear.

The 2A isn't a "law", per si, but rather an assurance that the government should not "infringe upon a God given right."
Something man can't seem to leave alone.

 

[DouglasR]

This is my understanding of the talking point: "Men who owned handguns were eight times more likely than men who didn’t to die of self-inflicted gunshot wounds. Women who owned handguns were more than 35 times more likely than women who didn't to kill themselves with a gun."

Caveat, this study just looked at California and was supported by the Fund for a Safer Future . https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-n...associated-with-much-higher-suicide-risk.html

Of general note, "Women attempt suicide more frequently than men but have fewer completed suicides, largely because the means they tend to use (e.g., poisons) are less lethal than those men tend to use (e.g., guns or hanging)."

Of course there are many covariates that result in suicide and suicide attempts, access to handguns being just one.

I mean I’ve seen a seen these numbers before.
kinda seems like common sense.
hell of a breakthrough Stanford!
great work!

But why would I care?
someone killing themself is between them and them self.
if you’re living a tortured existence and you want out who am I to judge?
Maybe things are just that bad.

I feel like most people who commit suicide are prob thinking about it for more than 72hrs or 30 days.

If someone goes out and buys a gun to impulse kill themself they’re just weak and I just don’t give a shit.

why should I?
why should I wait 72hrs because a small number of crazy people are killing themselves?