3 Week season for Mule Deer

[brockel]

Do you beleive that less of these young bucks will get killed in a season if the season was shorter or during a different time period? At the end of the day I think the same number of deer will be shot in a given year. Could very well be that more of the young deer are killed as hunters may not feel they have as much time to wait for something better coupled with the fact that one would likely perceive more people in the woods on a given day.

Absolutely. Might even help genetics out as I know lots of people that will pass up your spindly horned 3 points cause “I’m not hanging my tag on anything but a 4x4”. That 3pt might be a 5.5 year old deer but that 4x4 they had to shoot was only 3.5 years old. Shortening the season might make those guys shoot the first buck they see because god forbid they don’t get their buck that year.

 

[antlerradar]

I think ND has had some real good years here and there, usually weather events trigger changes, like anywhere. But we've been on a decline in quality since 2018ish maybe a bit earlier and this drought doesn't help.

We have an advantage though. We don't have the drama in ND around our Game and fish. They do a pretty good job overall. They ain't perfect but I should really have zero complaints given circumstances. They listen, they talk to us, they're transparent and responsive. We get a bad weather event, bios go to work and make a recommendation to cut rifle tags, because they tell us that is the great equalizer. That in 1 fall we can make significant progress in growing or shrinking the population using rifle hunters. Up to 80% success rates.

We have been on a decline in quality since 1988.

 

[Unlucky]

270 class buck acourse if the other side matched. Southwest mt 1991. Found by my dad. Genetics are here, management is not. Age class is king.

 

[Saveyhunter]

Guess they labeled it wrong?View attachment 211340

The population took a huge hit in the NW part of the state where they had a storm, not the SW where we hunted. There’s lots of ways to read into a graph. Where we hunt, they were strictly mowed down by nothing more than too many hunters and not having a chance. So yes, the population suffered a huge hit then overall for two reasons on your graph. The population has bounced back, but the experience is not near what it was. I know you have hunted a lot of places and maybe I’m missing something, but I am just surprised you want more guys in the field at the same time screwing up the hunts of those of us that try to do it right.

 

[Unlucky]

Mule deer management in montana is laughable. A cruel joke. I only know 2 places they thrive to a point. Le units and private. Only common theme is limited harvest. Otc public non existent.

My opion toughest animal to harvest a old, aka trophy buck in October. Next to a 300 class bull otc in southwest MT. Reasons being an army that could take over most 3rd world country's is allowed to kill everything.

 

[brockel]

My opion toughest animal to harvest a old, aka trophy buck in October.

Can’t kill what isn’t there. I think as for eastern Montana a 4.5 year old mule deer is a rare sight anymore. Seems things have really picked up speed going downhill in the last 10-12 years

 

[Unlucky]

Just thinking. Like, love the idea of archery ends oct 10th. Mule deer season beging oct 11th. Open to nov 1st. Then a draw for very limited mule deer buck quota. From Nov 2nd to dec 1st. Along those lines.

Mule deer doe, no tags public. Only private. Reevaluate in 2 yrs. Numbers are beyond comprehension on public.

 

[Unlucky]

A buddy, seen 120 mulies in a limited draw area. Last month. 14 bucks. Biggest was a small 4x4. So sad.

The private had more and better quality. But wont be putting in for that tag.

 

[8andcounting]

Hard to believe there won't be some cuts. Not sure how much they'll cut mule deer though.

If it's cut enough I'm sure we'll get another bump in archery numbers. A change there will be next.

Yes . We need a one tag system in my opinion

 

[SAJ-99]

Do you beleive that less of these young bucks will get killed in a season if the season was shorter or during a different time period? At the end of the day I think the same number of deer will be shot in a given year. Could very well be that more of the young deer are killed as hunters may not feel they have as much time to wait for something better coupled with the fact that one would likely perceive more people in the woods on a given day.

The proposition wasn’t just a shorter season. It was a shorter season and eliminating the weeks of the rut. For sure more young bucks would survive. If I have to explain why to people, then they haven’t hunted mule deer in October vs November. It’s a Buck that beds and sleeps most of the at with other bucks, versus a buck that sleeps in 30min bursts before he starts checking does again. Movement makes the buck 100x more visible.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Before commenting on the season setting process we just wrapped up yesterday, I spent quite a bit of time researching the 3 week season and discussing it with biologists. Initially I have to say that at face value, yes, this absolutely made sense. Don't shoot the big bucks in the rut when they are most vulnerable and therefore we will have more big bucks. Well, after looking through the data it actually suggests just the opposite. When the state has tried three week seasons in the past two things happen. First, hunter days increase because everyone thinks that's where they're going to find the big one and they flock to those units, and second, the number of mature bucks surveyed by biologists actually goes down, because more hunters are pursuing deer during the three week season and thus shooting more bucks. What is frustrating is that we will learn nothing from these several units in Region 2 going to a three week season because Region 2 doesn't survey mule deer. They have no idea what their buck : doe ratios are or even a rough idea of population trend. So what will happen is these seasons will go into effect, two years down the road we will ask how's it going, what are we seeing.. and they will shrug and say you tell us.

Like everyone on this forum, I want more big mule deer. The past 4 bucks I have taken in SW MT over the last ten years have not been big antlered deer. All mature deer, but not exceeding 140". The youngest of those bucks was 4.5 years old. This to me says what we need to be focusing on for mule deer is habitat and reducing competition with elk. We need healthy does that are in terrific shape, and then we need good habitat that can support deer. We need to be killing more conifers that are encroaching onto winter range and we need to be shooting more cow elk. We also need to be shooting mule deer does where there are simply too many for the limiting winter habitat to support. Lastly, We need to remember that the department is driving the opportunity train because every hunter survey they've ever done has shown a vast majority of MT residents proffer opportunity over limited entry. They are likely going to re-do the hunter survey which is great and will be very interesting to see the results of but I bet it won't change that much. If I was king, I would first spend serious resources on habitat, then I would require every region to have trend surveys so we can actually have data, then I would institute mandatory reporting so we could have real hunter data, and lastly I would consider making the entire state a draw for MD in each district so as to limit the hunting pressure even if it means we can only hunt mule deer every 2-3 years. There are gobs of whitetail in this state that need to get killed so there will always be deer hunting available in some form on a yearly basis. Of course all this goes out the window when you bring CWD into the mix and I don't have the energy for that discussion right now.

I'm a fan of the three week season as I've really enjoyed my deer hunts in those areas, but people need to read this again.

The caveat I have with this very well written post is that I don't think putting all the pressure on whitetail helps.

The recurring theme is that unlimited hunting pressure on top of poor management is a recipe for really unhappy customers.

 

[teamhoyt]

I used to think like a lot of you, in fact i used to say that any deer here that survives and gets big does so in spite of the fwp not because of them. I grew up in ND and bowhunted there every year until 2018, so im very familiar with the quality of deer there. I also lived in Wy for 13 years and seen the quality of deer there.
I cant believe that in MT its basically a free for all and have often said i would like it if its all limited quota.
We have a ton of private land around here that doesn't allow hunting. These act as sanctuary for the deer. These areas are the only reason imo that some deer grow to older age.

The thing that makes me think it may do no good, is even with all this country that dont have any hunting at all, there isnt a bunch of big deer being killed.
652 has been limited quota for a long time, has it helped?
When the cmr only allowed md hunting for 3 weeks to try and improve the age class, did it help? They claimed it didnt and then opened it back up to match the state season.

Im all for limited quota, im for shorter seasons, im all for not hunting the rut, im willing to give anything a try. What i am NOT is convinced that its going to be everything a lot of folks hope it would be.

 

[huntin24/7]

I want to clarify one thing that I think gets confused. No one advocating a shorter(3 week) season or change in the season timing thinks it will turn MT into antelope island. It will allow a few more 3+ year old bucks to survive the season though. 1 and 2 year old mule deer bucks are as dumb a big game animal as you will find. Any effort put forth will allow anyone who wants one of those bucks to have one. Once they get 3 years and older, they get increasingly smarter and more difficult to hunt, and if rut hunting is less, those deer are more difficult to kill and generally will allow a few more of them to survive. Most guys supporting this don’t need to kill a big old deer every year, but they want some out there to hunt. Sorry I’m incapable of explaining anything in less than a lengthy paragraph. Lol

 

[brockel]

I want to clarify one thing that I think gets confused. No one advocating a shorter(3 week) season or change in the season timing thinks it will turn MT into antelope island. It will allow a few more 3+ year old bucks to survive the season though. 1 and 2 year old mule deer bucks are as dumb a big game animal as you will find. Any effort put forth will allow anyone who wants one of those bucks to have one. Once they get 3 years and older, they get increasingly smarter and more difficult to hunt, and if rut hunting is less, those deer are more difficult to kill and generally will allow a few more of them to survive. Most guys supporting this don’t need to kill a big old deer every year, but they want some out there to hunt. Sorry I’m incapable of explaining anything in less than a lengthy paragraph. Lol

Exactly. I’m not asking to kill a 170-180” deer every year. I just want the hope that one is out there. As of right now there is very little hope of that. I shouldn’t even put inches to it. Should say a 5.5+ year old deer. Hell even 4.5+

 

[MTTW]

Why prevent the future. Worried about your own self.

Really mule deer are so beyond management that the only places they prosper are privite and LE units.

Your only kidding yourself if u think other wise.

Montana's best LE mule deer unit kills about 100 mule deer per year. 1/2 bucks. It includes 663 square miles according to MTFWP hunt planner. We kill a buck for every 14 or so square miles. Prospering? The mule deer in sw MT are taking their last gasps for air as a population, everywhere except in town and the lower subdivisions.
I can drive a loop here locally on winter range where for years we would see several hundred deer, and at times a thousand or more. The last few years you see more like 20 to 30 deer total. Late winter and below zero doesn't matter they are damned near extinct. Of course, mule deer season is still wide f--ing open. There are not even any deer on the upper private.

MTFWP is not going to save them.

 

[brocksw]

Montana's best LE mule deer unit kills about 100 mule deer per year. 1/2 bucks. It includes 663 square miles according to MTFWP hunt planner. We kill a buck for every 14 or so square miles. Prospering? The mule deer in sw MT are taking their last gasps for air as a population, everywhere except in town and the lower subdivisions.
I can drive a loop here locally on winter range where for years we would see several hundred deer, and at times a thousand or more. The last few years you see more like 20 to 30 deer total. Late winter and below zero doesn't matter they are damned near extinct. Of course, mule deer season is still wide f--ing open. There are not even any deer on the upper private.

MTFWP is not going to save them.

Just for a comparison, some of NDs best mule deer units are roughly the same size in surface area, slightly larger. The last few years weve been allocating around 350-400 mule deer buck tags and a couple hundred doe tags. Those tags are generally a 6 to 8 year draw for residents, but bow tags are over the counter for residents. We have roughly 28000 resident bow hunters (not sure how many are primarily after mule deer). But archers get from Sept to first weekend in January and that tag for residents is a statewide tag for either species. The last 3 years bow hunters in the badlands take just under 1000 mule deer off the landscape.

Our rifle season is a 16.5 day season in the middle of Nov and it's an absolute mad house out there I most areas. Vehicles everywhere....and I mean everywhere.

 

[brocksw]

Exactly. I’m not asking to kill a 170-180” deer every year. I just want the hope that one is out there. As of right now there is very little hope of that. I shouldn’t even put inches to it. Should say a 5.5+ year old deer. Hell even 4.5+

I don't understand how a thread like this exists and a thread like this one also exists.

Montana on the Upswing?

Seeing some nice bucks come out of Montana this year....after the doom and gloom from the past couple years. Those who hunted Montana this year, do you think it is on a slight upward trend?

www.hunttalk.com

 

[brocksw]

Yes . We need a one tag system in my opinion

I'm not against that. There's some variables I'd like to know before supporting it. If it means you have to bow hunt every year while accumulating rifle points, and then every 6 to 8 years who get a rifle tag, I don't think that would change much. Maybe the way to do it is to make hunters pick. You either apply for the 4 month archery season and give up applying for rifle or vice versa. But you're not able to build up points for a rifle tag if you're going to are very hunt every year.

We should probably start a new thread if we wish to continue this. Weve already derailed this one. Althought I do feel like western ND is a good comparisons to eastern MT.

 

[brockel]

I don't understand how a thread like this exists and a thread like this one also exists.

Montana on the Upswing?

Seeing some nice bucks come out of Montana this year....after the doom and gloom from the past couple years. Those who hunted Montana this year, do you think it is on a slight upward trend?

www.hunttalk.com

Seems to be the same feelings in both threads. Montana’s shitty management and shitty quality

What am I missing

 

[mtmuley]

Anybody know what happened to Timmy? mtmuley