.25.06 for Elk

[The Hedgehog]

Talk to your friend. Sounds like he was Park Service law enforcement/bear control. 9mm was for former and 00 shotgun the latter. That's how our guys at Katmai were outfitted. At the time I worked there (2007) similar staff in USFS had .375 rifles for bear service. If he is good enough to hit a charging grizzly in the brain or spinal cord with a 9mm, then he must get dressed in a phone booth.

I would be interested in hearing experiences of anyone who shot grizzlies with .25 calibre bullets. To me those would be meaningful "facts." Growing up in Montana back in the 60s and 70s when it was still legal to shoot griz, I knew of many guys who put them down, mostly because they had to. One .44 mag and the rest were 30 cal or larger grownup guns. Mostly magnums as I recall.

Any guide with experience will tell you grizzly bears are a much different animal to knock down than same size elk. I think I can say without a doubt if anyone shows up to a lodge to fill a grizzly tag with 25-06, he is probably going to get sent home. Yes, some crazy people do hunt grizzly with bows but a guide is usually standing behind them with .375 or .458, NOT 25-06. Yes, the guide could be there to back up a lightweight gun but outfitters typically are not interested in cleaning up unnecessary messes (and neither is their insurance company). Bow hunting grizzly is inherently hazardous so any cleanup comes with the territory ... and probably a hefty price tag. I have a feeling purchasing a guide for a grizzly bow hunt is a lot more expensive than for a rifle hunt. Hmmm. I'll email my PH about that. What do they charge for dangerous game bow hunts? Watching the youtube videos I see the cape buffalo bow hunts have two PHs with backup big guns. Though clients can legally hunt with .375 (nothing smaller), I've never heard of a PH backing them up with anything smaller than .416. Not in the modern era anyway.

 

[OntarioHunter]

FFS she’s hunting elk. She’s not hunting grizzlies. I bet if you ask those guides if a 25 cal bullet between the eyes of a grizzly would work they would say yes. If you aren’t hitting them in the brain or the spine you aren’t stopping a charging bear with a 375 either. Jesus Christ

Right. She doesn't INTEND to hunt grizzlies ... but that doesn't mean one might not be intending to hunt her, especially if there's elk blood in the air. A .375 can and will stop a grizzly in its tracks. A 300 grain bullet will certainly stand a better chance of putting down a charging 600 lb bear than a 120 gr one. Talk to Isaac Newton about that.

 

[brockel]

Right. She doesn't INTEND to hunt grizzlies ... but that doesn't mean one might not be intending to hunt her, especially if there's elk blood in the air. A .375 can and will stop a grizzly in its tracks. A 300 grain bullet will certainly stand a better chance of putting down a charging 600 lb bear than a 120 gr one. Talk to Isac Newton about that.

If that 300 grain bullet hits brain or spine sure. If not that bear is still going to be on top of you.

 

[OntarioHunter]

If that 300 grain bullet hits brain or spine sure. If not that bear is still going to be on top of you.

Right. This from the voice of experience? You forget, I grew up with guys who killed them, usually charging, and with less than .375 (but nothing smaller than 300 Win ... that I can remember anyway. I'll ask my brother tonight what he can recall. The 44 mag kill was George Ritter who was literally on top of a big boar chewing on his client. Griz ambushed the last person in line as they were packing out an elk. I remember that someone in the party put 30-30 rounds into the bear to no effect. Probably George as he was big into the cowboy look. Rolling Bull Durham took him out before he turned forty but his twin sister who babysat me and my brothers must still be alive. Like to hear her version again. It made the papers.)

 

[OntarioHunter]

If this fella intends to hunt elk with his daughter in grizzly country, he could back her up with his bigger gun. That would definitely be sensible.

Killing an elk with 25-06 is doable but the margin for error is significantly tighter than for a larger 30 calibre cartridge. How experienced is she? If inexperienced, I would say go with something that hits a little harder with wider margin for error. Of course, dad will be there to clean up (and protect if necessary) but the objective is usually for our kids to take their own animals.

 

[The Hedgehog]

JFC

 

[noharleyyet]

Haysuse de Christo...fly specs in the pepper (JLS)

 

[brockel]

If this fella intends to hunt elk with his daughter in grizzly country, he could back her up with his bigger gun. That would definitely be sensible.

Killing an elk with 25-06 is doable but the margin for error is significantly tighter than for a larger 30 calibre cartridge. How experienced is she? If inexperienced, I would say go with something that hits a little harder with wider margin for error. Of course, dad will be there to clean up (and protect if necessary) but the objective is usually for our kids to take their own animals.

Wait till you hear about people bow hunting elk in grizzly country.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

My apologies for taking this topic a on a ride. a 25-06 at lesser ranges in the hands of a skilled shooter is fine for elk.

I have just had my preceptions forever shifted by hunting in grizzly country, where probably 98% of all elk have never been

 

[OntarioHunter]

Wait till you hear about people bow hunting elk in grizzly country.

I seem to read about them in the news relatively frequently ... with the usual unpleasant newsworthy gory details.

 

[The Hedgehog]

 

[brockel]

I seem to read about them in the news relatively frequently ... with the usual unpleasant newsworthy gory details.

You win. Get the girl a 416 rigby. Never know might walk in on a cluster of grizzlies

 

[longbow51]

For Pete's sake. No one is sending a teenager, boy or girl, hunting elk alone in grizzly country. In fact, no one should dress out an elk alone in grizz country.

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful replies.

 

[longbow51]

You win. Get the girl a 416 rigby. Never know might walk in on a cluster of grizzlies

No way; like sending her in with a flyswatter. 50 cal it is.

 

[TheJason]

I’m surprised we’re all still alive.

 

[TheJason]

25-06 users.

 

[TheJason]

Put that .243 away sonny boooooy…

 

[TheJason]

Bring that cute little rifle over here…

 

[OntarioHunter]

For Pete's sake. No one is sending a teenager, boy or girl, hunting elk alone in grizzly country. In fact, no one should dress out an elk alone in grizz country.

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful replies.

There are other reasons. Potential lurking grizzlies is just one. See if you can find an outfitter who thinks 25-06 is enough for elk. Maybe you can, but I'd be surprised. I am looking into hunting similar size stag in South America and they are advising 270 or 30-06 minimum. Almost all the outfitters in South Africa I know or checked out have 30-06 loaner rifles for plains game. Most of those animals are smaller than elk. Must be a reason. Obviously it's because an inexperienced person has a higher probability to place the shot poorly, and there is never any guarantee the client will have any experience (often they have NO experience!). A poorly placed shot with a 30-06 has a greater potential for eventual recovery than a light bullet. Clients who don't recover their animal still have to pay the trophy fee. Clients who pay the trophy fee but go home empty handed are not likely to tip or to return. Bad for business.

 

[buffybr]

Talk to your friend. Sounds like he was Park Service law enforcement/bear control. 9mm was for former and 00 shotgun the latter. That's how our guys at Katmai were outfitted. At the time I worked there (2007) similar staff in USFS had .375 rifles for bear service. If he is good enough to hit a charging grizzly in the brain or spinal cord with a 9mm, then he must get dressed in a phone booth.

I would be interested in hearing experiences of anyone who shot grizzlies with .25 calibre bullets. To me those would be meaningful "facts." Growing up in Montana back in the 60s and 70s when it was still legal to shoot griz, I knew of many guys who put them down, mostly because they had to. One .44 mag and the rest were 30 cal or larger grownup guns. Mostly magnums as I recall.

Any guide with experience will tell you grizzly bears are a much different animal to knock down than same size elk. I think I can say without a doubt if anyone shows up to a lodge to fill a grizzly tag with 25-06, he is probably going to get sent home. Yes, some crazy people do hunt grizzly with bows but a guide is usually standing behind them with .375 or .458, NOT 25-06. Yes, the guide could be there to back up a lightweight gun but outfitters typically are not interested in cleaning up unnecessary messes (and neither is their insurance company). Bow hunting grizzly is inherently hazardous so any cleanup comes with the territory ... and probably a hefty price tag. I have a feeling purchasing a guide for a grizzly bow hunt is a lot more expensive than for a rifle hunt. Hmmm. I'll email my PH about that. What do they charge for dangerous game bow hunts? Watching the youtube videos I see the cape buffalo bow hunts have two PHs with backup big guns. Though clients can legally hunt with .375 (nothing smaller), I've never heard of a PH backing them up with anything smaller than .416. Not in the modern era anyway.

Although I used to hang out with a few friends that were in the .22-250/.220 Swift for everything crowd, I usually hunt with larger calibers, especially for critters that can eat me. About 15 or so years ago, a Black bear attacked a member of one of our Forest Service trail crews. I led the recovery team in along with our FS LEO and a Sheriff Deputy. The LEO gave me his AR .223, he carried a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buck, and the Deputy had a .308 Win. We got to the attack site about an hour after the initial attack and the bear charged us. All three of us fired at the same time, instantly dropping her.

We didn't know that she had cubs until after we got the injured crewman out of a tree, and I saw one of the cubs run through the brush and up a tree. I went up the tree and caught him, and the next day FWP went back there with dogs and caught a second cub. Both cubs were taken to an animal re-hab facility in Helena and released a couple of years later.

Like I think I've posted before, I've probably killed more deer size and larger animals with my .257 Ackley than I have with any two of my other rifles. I've hunted with that rifle on dozens of hunts in grizzly country, and I guess luckily I've never encountered a charging grizzly.

Last September when I hunted Brown bears in SW Alaska, I used my .375 RUM, and my guide, who has been hunting the big bears there for over 30 years, carried a .300 WSM to back me up with if he needed to.

When I shot my Cape Buffalo in 2005, I used my .375 RUM. My guide, who was licensed in South Africa, didn't have his own rifle because we were hunting in Zimbabwe and he didn't want the hassle of bringing his rifle across the border, so he borrowed my 7 mm Rem mag to back me up. We did, however, have a Zim PH with us and he carried a .458 Win mag. It turned out that my shot was good, and neither PH had to fire a back up shot.

Then when I shot my Leopard in Mozambique, I hunted with a young PH on his first solo Leopard hunt and I don't remember if he carried a .30-06 or a .375 H&H for back up. I used my .300 Weatherby with a 168 grain Barnes TSX bullet. When we tracked my shot Leopard in the middle of the night, the outfitter carried the .375, my PH carried the .30-06, and I carried my .300 Wby. We found my Leopard stone dead 18 steps from where I shot him at the bait.