Raveneaux
New member
Tom - don't worry too much about Weekend Warrior; true, there's no legal prostitution in Montana, but there's still a lot of sheep. 
$22 million? looks like its not over,,,,,,,,,,
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Silent But Deadly
New member
I think it is exactly the same thing, only that Game farmers don't wear a big purple hat and drive a low rider, and you don't have to beat your elk when he steels your money.
Think about it. What is wrong with sex? What makes paying for it is so wrong? If it is so wrong, why is it legal in Nevada. The rest of the country just doesn't want to have it in their state. Nevada manages their brothels just fine, and I am sure that Texas manages there game farms just fine.
Seriously though, if you don't see the similarity between the two, you are just choosing to ignore it. Killing large trophy elk and having sex with a beautiful women are both very appealing to many people. A lot of people just lack what it takes to fill an elk tag or what it takes to score with the opposite sex. That is where the pimps and the game farmers come in.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against either. I'm just glad that I don't have it going on in my state. If you find this comparison offending, I am willing to bet a pimp would also.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-25-2002 15:02: Message edited by: Weekend Warrior ]</font>
Think about it. What is wrong with sex? What makes paying for it is so wrong? If it is so wrong, why is it legal in Nevada. The rest of the country just doesn't want to have it in their state. Nevada manages their brothels just fine, and I am sure that Texas manages there game farms just fine.
Seriously though, if you don't see the similarity between the two, you are just choosing to ignore it. Killing large trophy elk and having sex with a beautiful women are both very appealing to many people. A lot of people just lack what it takes to fill an elk tag or what it takes to score with the opposite sex. That is where the pimps and the game farmers come in.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against either. I'm just glad that I don't have it going on in my state. If you find this comparison offending, I am willing to bet a pimp would also.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-25-2002 15:02: Message edited by: Weekend Warrior ]</font>
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
WW.. Man! I'm proud to have you as a buddy. But you better admit it now that the only reason you're glad you don't have prostitution in your state is because you'd be broke and in some serious debt.
Imagine if it were all legal.. sheep, prostitutes, canned elk shoots... we'd be living in paradise now wouldn't we??
Imagine if it were all legal.. sheep, prostitutes, canned elk shoots... we'd be living in paradise now wouldn't we??
Silent But Deadly
New member
I'm surprised there aren't any sheep brothels in Texas where you can sell an artificial version of the real thing that we have here in Montana
There just isn't any need for it here. There are pastures all over with plenty of sheep. We don't need to pay for it.
There just isn't any need for it here. There are pastures all over with plenty of sheep. We don't need to pay for it.
Raveneaux
New member
By Golly I knew it was true!....You Montanans are so BAAAAAAAD....
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-25-2002 15:01: Message edited by: Raveneaux ]</font>
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-25-2002 15:01: Message edited by: Raveneaux ]</font>
BbarC
New member
WW, Down here when we got real "sugar" in the bowl at home, we don't need no "substitutes." better watch out for them sheep , I hear they spread CPR [ chronic pecker rot}.!!Course, I guess a peckerhead already knows that!!,
Silent But Deadly
New member
Is sugar the name of your sheep? Ha Ha!
BbarC
New member
Nope, no sheep at my house. Believe you'd better reread your previous posts, I do believe it was WW from up Montanny way talking about stump jumping sheep for free.... Ol Bob
Tom
New member
"Killing large trophy elk and having sex with a beautiful women are both very appealing to many people. A lot of people just lack what it takes to fill an elk tag or what it takes to score with the opposite sex."
I agree with the first sentence but disagree with the second sentence. Not scoring with the opposit sex and not filling an elk tag are two completely different things. If you want to think of them as the same, then its a rediculous thought.
What if you fill the elk tag with an outfitter, isn't that the same as prostitution too, since they take you to them? Or, what if your buddy says there's one over the hill there, go get her/him? Maybe you're saying its the fence, not the outfitter, not the help of a friend, that makes it prostitution. Your reasoning just seems rediculous, to think some ade to a hunt makes it like prostitution is the idea.
Like if I buy one of those $1100+ guaranteed tags with a Montana outfitter, is that prostitution, because its guaranteed? Or a Montana buys a similar guaranteed $50 tag, is that subsidized prostitution? You talk to the pimps around there and they set you up with a good one, that's the way you think about it. You walk the streets (for elk, its mountains), then you find one and score.
Its a rediculous thought, its NOT about scoring with the opposite sex, accept maybe for people who think about it like you. Its not an offending idea, its a rediculous one.
You say you're glad its not going on in your state. What about the bird reserves? Its ok for real men to go to those and for you to have them in the state, in your mind, right?
You're saying is just like the real man versus the one that buys it. Its like your $50 tag versus the out of stater $1100+ tag is where the pimps up their protect your herd. Am I getting it now? Your analogy is pretty unproductive but we learn something every day. I never knew prostitution used to be legal in Montana. You got a reference for that?
I agree with the first sentence but disagree with the second sentence. Not scoring with the opposit sex and not filling an elk tag are two completely different things. If you want to think of them as the same, then its a rediculous thought.
What if you fill the elk tag with an outfitter, isn't that the same as prostitution too, since they take you to them? Or, what if your buddy says there's one over the hill there, go get her/him? Maybe you're saying its the fence, not the outfitter, not the help of a friend, that makes it prostitution. Your reasoning just seems rediculous, to think some ade to a hunt makes it like prostitution is the idea.
Like if I buy one of those $1100+ guaranteed tags with a Montana outfitter, is that prostitution, because its guaranteed? Or a Montana buys a similar guaranteed $50 tag, is that subsidized prostitution? You talk to the pimps around there and they set you up with a good one, that's the way you think about it. You walk the streets (for elk, its mountains), then you find one and score.
Its a rediculous thought, its NOT about scoring with the opposite sex, accept maybe for people who think about it like you. Its not an offending idea, its a rediculous one.
You say you're glad its not going on in your state. What about the bird reserves? Its ok for real men to go to those and for you to have them in the state, in your mind, right?
You're saying is just like the real man versus the one that buys it. Its like your $50 tag versus the out of stater $1100+ tag is where the pimps up their protect your herd. Am I getting it now? Your analogy is pretty unproductive but we learn something every day. I never knew prostitution used to be legal in Montana. You got a reference for that?
Silent But Deadly
New member
BbarC-
Ahhhh, you got me.
It would have been better if I would have said "If that sport caught on here in Montana, you would have sheep brothels in Texas." For that, I am cool with you thinking that I nail sheep.
Are you still planning on sharing a sleeping bag with me this fall. Sometimes I get a little tired of sheep.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-25-2002 16:45: Message edited by: Weekend Warrior ]</font>
Ahhhh, you got me.
It would have been better if I would have said "If that sport caught on here in Montana, you would have sheep brothels in Texas." For that, I am cool with you thinking that I nail sheep.
Are you still planning on sharing a sleeping bag with me this fall. Sometimes I get a little tired of sheep.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-25-2002 16:45: Message edited by: Weekend Warrior ]</font>
Silent But Deadly
New member
Tom,
I do see your point too. I'm sure there are some high fenced hunting situtations that are no less challenging than some guided hunts on private property. Certain species may be different also. The biggest in my opinion is the availability of elk aren't as high in a lot of states like women are. That is why I don't have any problem with these kinds of hunts in states like Texas.
However, I would compare a guided hunt on a ranch with very low hunting pressure to a college of nursing filled with a bunch of horny women. If a guy wanted to pay the tuition, he would be in an awesome setting. I would compare a buddy telling you were an elk is like having a friend set you up with a friend. But this only applies in states like Montana where the elk run free like women in the city.
I do see your point too. I'm sure there are some high fenced hunting situtations that are no less challenging than some guided hunts on private property. Certain species may be different also. The biggest in my opinion is the availability of elk aren't as high in a lot of states like women are. That is why I don't have any problem with these kinds of hunts in states like Texas.
However, I would compare a guided hunt on a ranch with very low hunting pressure to a college of nursing filled with a bunch of horny women. If a guy wanted to pay the tuition, he would be in an awesome setting. I would compare a buddy telling you were an elk is like having a friend set you up with a friend. But this only applies in states like Montana where the elk run free like women in the city.
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
Haha. WW looks like you struch a nerve.
Unlike Tom, I see the comparison for sure.
Tom, here we had these itsy-bitsy-teeny-weenie elk shoot (hunt?) pens on these game farms... maybe a couple hundred acres with little to no cover. A guy shows up forks over several thousand bucks... "hunts" for an hour or however long it takes his no-hunting incompetant ass to get within range of his near-petable trophy..Kapow! All she wrote. I don't mind that. Whatever gets a guy's rocks off really, but not my cup of tea personally. It's sort of like how I think about the Mustang Ranch in Vegas.
Now compare that to earning a trophy class bull elk on public land and you have some pretty gigantic differences in challenges, effort, time, luck, and quite often physical/mental requirements to score on a "real" bull elk. Even on the most expensive, prime guided rifle hunts, guarenteed outfitter licenses, private land... success is not guarneteed and they are in not comparable to any game farm elk shoot MT has ever had available.
The old canned MT elk shoots (just like prostitution) have quick and easy guarenteed results.
Real trophy bull elk hunts are rarely ever guarenteed.
Just my opinion..
Thanks for the wonderful analogy WW. haha.
Unlike Tom, I see the comparison for sure.
Tom, here we had these itsy-bitsy-teeny-weenie elk shoot (hunt?) pens on these game farms... maybe a couple hundred acres with little to no cover. A guy shows up forks over several thousand bucks... "hunts" for an hour or however long it takes his no-hunting incompetant ass to get within range of his near-petable trophy..Kapow! All she wrote. I don't mind that. Whatever gets a guy's rocks off really, but not my cup of tea personally. It's sort of like how I think about the Mustang Ranch in Vegas.
Now compare that to earning a trophy class bull elk on public land and you have some pretty gigantic differences in challenges, effort, time, luck, and quite often physical/mental requirements to score on a "real" bull elk. Even on the most expensive, prime guided rifle hunts, guarenteed outfitter licenses, private land... success is not guarneteed and they are in not comparable to any game farm elk shoot MT has ever had available.
The old canned MT elk shoots (just like prostitution) have quick and easy guarenteed results.
Real trophy bull elk hunts are rarely ever guarenteed.
Just my opinion..
Thanks for the wonderful analogy WW. haha.
Tom
New member
Now there are all sorts of comparisons that can be made. It helps see the other guys point of view sometimes.
How about this one Greenhorn, you go to a super elk area (boo koo preference point area or really low number of tags with near 100% success), full of big guys, you watch them a while, you pick a good looking one out, one that smiles at you and doesn't run away at your sight, you shoot it, drive your truck up and load him. Its your elk hunt version of Mustang Ranch, right?
What about the bird hunts on preserves there in Montana, how do you guys think about that? Maybe you don't bird hunt, so you don't think about it much.
How about this one Greenhorn, you go to a super elk area (boo koo preference point area or really low number of tags with near 100% success), full of big guys, you watch them a while, you pick a good looking one out, one that smiles at you and doesn't run away at your sight, you shoot it, drive your truck up and load him. Its your elk hunt version of Mustang Ranch, right?
What about the bird hunts on preserves there in Montana, how do you guys think about that? Maybe you don't bird hunt, so you don't think about it much.
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
Tom you just don't get it. First we are not talking about birds here. This is the elk forum and this topic is specificly about MONTANA CANNED ELK SHOOTING.
I've been on a many of those special permit hunts you think might compare to a canned hunt. Late migratory permits north of Yellowstone Park. The truly big ones usually get away.... They have on all but one of the late hunts I've been on, and I've scouted for all of them and busted my ass every time trying to get situated to take a nice bull. Though we usually get a nice bull, the ones we see and try for seem to get away. This happens because they are not captive and often live in rough terrain. The one big bull that was taken was pretty damn lucky on the last day of the hunt. This winter I was on a 4-day hunt where we got skunked. That particular hunt has about the highest success you can get for a bull elk harvest. We hunted every day and until dark on the last day.
The best elk permits... maybe the Utah's Pahvant, Arizona's unit 9...ask DelW about that one.. the best area in Arizona.. he shot a spike last fall with a pile of points built up. It must not have been so simple to shoot a monster B&C elk, even in Arizona's best hunting area. Maybe Nevada's Shell Mtn Range. If you think those are a gimmee... show up, pick one out, drive up to the bull of your dreams, drop it, load it in the truck.. you are living in a pipe dream. Sure, it might happen.. but don't plan on it.
From your comments it's obvious you know very little about elk hunting.
Anyway it's a moot point. No more canned elk shoots in Montana. Can't you crybaby's ever get over it? If you have to shoot an elk in a pen, go to Texas. And similarly, if it's impossible for you to get lucky ... try the Mustang Ranch in Vegas.
I've been on a many of those special permit hunts you think might compare to a canned hunt. Late migratory permits north of Yellowstone Park. The truly big ones usually get away.... They have on all but one of the late hunts I've been on, and I've scouted for all of them and busted my ass every time trying to get situated to take a nice bull. Though we usually get a nice bull, the ones we see and try for seem to get away. This happens because they are not captive and often live in rough terrain. The one big bull that was taken was pretty damn lucky on the last day of the hunt. This winter I was on a 4-day hunt where we got skunked. That particular hunt has about the highest success you can get for a bull elk harvest. We hunted every day and until dark on the last day.
The best elk permits... maybe the Utah's Pahvant, Arizona's unit 9...ask DelW about that one.. the best area in Arizona.. he shot a spike last fall with a pile of points built up. It must not have been so simple to shoot a monster B&C elk, even in Arizona's best hunting area. Maybe Nevada's Shell Mtn Range. If you think those are a gimmee... show up, pick one out, drive up to the bull of your dreams, drop it, load it in the truck.. you are living in a pipe dream. Sure, it might happen.. but don't plan on it.
From your comments it's obvious you know very little about elk hunting.
Anyway it's a moot point. No more canned elk shoots in Montana. Can't you crybaby's ever get over it? If you have to shoot an elk in a pen, go to Texas. And similarly, if it's impossible for you to get lucky ... try the Mustang Ranch in Vegas.
Ithaca 37
New member
Tom, "full of big guys, you watch them a while, you pick a good looking one out,.... you shoot it, drive your truck up..."
I hope you really don't think it's that easy, even in the best of the controlled hunt areas. If you really do think it's that easy, somehow you've gotten the wrong impression. There's about a million things that can go wrong when you're hunting a big wild bull on public land, right up until the instant you squeeze the trigger, and even after that. Once they get away you're never sure of seeing them again.
In my opinion, the bird hunting preserves are the same as game farms. The birds are relatively stupid, tame and slow to escape.
I think game farms are a great industry for Texas and so is prostitution for Nevada. I'd like to see them both restricted to those states.
There's no way I'd ever consider a game farm hunt as challenging as a public land hunt, even a game farm of 50,000 acres of tough, rugged country. If it has a fence around it I know I'd catch up with the game eventually, especially elk. I know when I'm on public land and an elk gets away it might be twenty or thirty miles away the next day and I'll have no hope of finding it. That's what the difference is to me.
Now, I know a whitetail in a square mile of good cover can give me the slip for a long time, but if he's fenced in and I've got snow I'll get him eventually, even in 5 or 10 square miles. Without a fence anything can get away.
I hope you really don't think it's that easy, even in the best of the controlled hunt areas. If you really do think it's that easy, somehow you've gotten the wrong impression. There's about a million things that can go wrong when you're hunting a big wild bull on public land, right up until the instant you squeeze the trigger, and even after that. Once they get away you're never sure of seeing them again.
In my opinion, the bird hunting preserves are the same as game farms. The birds are relatively stupid, tame and slow to escape.
I think game farms are a great industry for Texas and so is prostitution for Nevada. I'd like to see them both restricted to those states.
There's no way I'd ever consider a game farm hunt as challenging as a public land hunt, even a game farm of 50,000 acres of tough, rugged country. If it has a fence around it I know I'd catch up with the game eventually, especially elk. I know when I'm on public land and an elk gets away it might be twenty or thirty miles away the next day and I'll have no hope of finding it. That's what the difference is to me.
Now, I know a whitetail in a square mile of good cover can give me the slip for a long time, but if he's fenced in and I've got snow I'll get him eventually, even in 5 or 10 square miles. Without a fence anything can get away.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Tom, wildlife biologists are paid to manage publicly owned wildlife, not privately owned livestock. They are (or should be) looking out for the public's deer and elk. So of course the biologists in Montana don't have experience managing wildlife ranches. They sure as heck know that game farms are a threat to wild deer and elk, and therefore would not support them.
Weekend Warrior, great analogy...you are 100% right on that.
Weekend Warrior, great analogy...you are 100% right on that.
BbarC
New member
I have one small pasture of only 55 acres and it's not game fenced. The ranch south and east are 30k acres and the one west and north is 10k acres. It's thicker than by gosh [ DS has seen it]. There are 2 really good whitetail bucks that live there 24/7. It would be no problem to go in there any day during season and take them. Would that be a "canned hunt" in you guys' opinion?? Just curious. Bob
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
No, not in my opinion. But once again, that's not what we are talking about here.
haha... I was just readin WW's post above again... "this is where pimps and game farmers come in.." haha. That's funny stuff. Come on.. admit it.
haha... I was just readin WW's post above again... "this is where pimps and game farmers come in.." haha. That's funny stuff. Come on.. admit it.
Silent But Deadly
New member
BbarC,
Do I understand you correctly? You have 2 really good white tail bucks that are living in a 55 acre pasture that is really thick and surrounded by 2 really large pastures. None of it is fenced? And you can go take them any day?
I'm guessing maybe you don't have a lot of hunting pressure on this place, or you have spent enough time watching these deer and knowing their patterns. You probably know how to get into a position where you can get within range of these deer without spooking them. This may be because you spend a lot of time in that spot.
I still say there is absolutely no way it would be as easy for you to kill one of these as it would be to kill an elk in a Montana style game farm. I would say your situation doesn't come close to a canned elk hunt.
It is like comparing the chicken ranch to having a couple hot bisexual babes living next door that are always inviting you over for a little 2 on 1.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-26-2002 09:06: Message edited by: Weekend Warrior ]</font>
Do I understand you correctly? You have 2 really good white tail bucks that are living in a 55 acre pasture that is really thick and surrounded by 2 really large pastures. None of it is fenced? And you can go take them any day?
I'm guessing maybe you don't have a lot of hunting pressure on this place, or you have spent enough time watching these deer and knowing their patterns. You probably know how to get into a position where you can get within range of these deer without spooking them. This may be because you spend a lot of time in that spot.
I still say there is absolutely no way it would be as easy for you to kill one of these as it would be to kill an elk in a Montana style game farm. I would say your situation doesn't come close to a canned elk hunt.
It is like comparing the chicken ranch to having a couple hot bisexual babes living next door that are always inviting you over for a little 2 on 1.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-26-2002 09:06: Message edited by: Weekend Warrior ]</font>
Tom
New member
I think you guys are equally uninformed about wildlife ranches. I've heard about such an elk hunt as in my example that Greenhorn called a pipe dream. I've personally been on many public hunts that were a piece of cake compared to getting a big animal on a wildlife ranch, even a small one. You guys have it way oversimplified. I don't know a good wildlife ranch for elk, so I imagine they weren't very good hunting in Montana but I don't have a problem with someone shooting one. You do, that's your privaledge but its my privaledge to disagree also.
Washington Hunter, in states where they manage game animals in high fence areas it doesn't mean they are privately owned. Its just a way to manage animals well, maybe not elk anywhere, I don't really know a good one for elk.
If you're not willing to consider hunting a high fence place, you'll never know the rules and the management make it a hunt or not, not the fence. An easy solution to Ithaca37 issue with the animals getting away is to simply say within a 100 yards of the fence is a no shoot zone. When an animal is in there, it got away, you go away and start over or you never go near the fence in the first place. An animal doesn't have to run 20 miles away to get away. There are easy and hard hunts of both types. If you can't believe that, you got your head up your a-hole.
Some have an issue with the guarantee on a high fence hunt. Here's how it works most places here that I've seen. You pay a deposit to reserve a spot. Since half the fun of a hunt is planning it, some people never show up, just have fun planning. The deposit helps assure they will show up and plans and expenses to accomodate them won't be wasted. The person hunts. If they get an animal, they pay the fee for that. If they don't get an animal, they don't pay the animal fee. Often they just pay a daily fee, for housing, daily hunting, and don't get an animal. That's the guarantee, they don't have to pay for the animal tag whether or not they get the animal. Its no big deal, this guarantee, its a benefit.
WW, says the biggest difference in the analogy is that women are all over, elk are concentrated in a few states. You know what your analogy says about the fees we pay to those states? Its a crapola analogy, its an entry fee to the house with the elk. This is an elk hunting forum, not a prostitution discussion, maybe it should move to the adult joke section. Get it?
I'm sure if we were at a PETA meeting, these kinds of arguments would be welcome as the PETA people are totally against hunting of any kind and this gives them reasons to be that way.
See there "Hunting: Unfair Game" campaign at the fishing/wildlife section of their web page.
http://204.29.171.80/framer/navigation.asp?charset=utf-8&cc=US&frameid=1565&lc=en-us&providerid=113&realname=PETA&uid=1721895&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.peta-online.org
Look at the Humane Society one, they have more money.
That's why I say this analogy is unproductive, it just give them ammo to end more killing of animals for food and for hunting. What kind of hunter are you, that you need a hound, that you need a big gun, that you need a fence, that you want to see animals everyday you hunt, that you shoot a lion in Ca? One at a time, not all at once, that's to hard now, but that's what their interested in.
Get it?
Washington Hunter, in states where they manage game animals in high fence areas it doesn't mean they are privately owned. Its just a way to manage animals well, maybe not elk anywhere, I don't really know a good one for elk.
If you're not willing to consider hunting a high fence place, you'll never know the rules and the management make it a hunt or not, not the fence. An easy solution to Ithaca37 issue with the animals getting away is to simply say within a 100 yards of the fence is a no shoot zone. When an animal is in there, it got away, you go away and start over or you never go near the fence in the first place. An animal doesn't have to run 20 miles away to get away. There are easy and hard hunts of both types. If you can't believe that, you got your head up your a-hole.
Some have an issue with the guarantee on a high fence hunt. Here's how it works most places here that I've seen. You pay a deposit to reserve a spot. Since half the fun of a hunt is planning it, some people never show up, just have fun planning. The deposit helps assure they will show up and plans and expenses to accomodate them won't be wasted. The person hunts. If they get an animal, they pay the fee for that. If they don't get an animal, they don't pay the animal fee. Often they just pay a daily fee, for housing, daily hunting, and don't get an animal. That's the guarantee, they don't have to pay for the animal tag whether or not they get the animal. Its no big deal, this guarantee, its a benefit.
WW, says the biggest difference in the analogy is that women are all over, elk are concentrated in a few states. You know what your analogy says about the fees we pay to those states? Its a crapola analogy, its an entry fee to the house with the elk. This is an elk hunting forum, not a prostitution discussion, maybe it should move to the adult joke section. Get it?
I'm sure if we were at a PETA meeting, these kinds of arguments would be welcome as the PETA people are totally against hunting of any kind and this gives them reasons to be that way.
See there "Hunting: Unfair Game" campaign at the fishing/wildlife section of their web page.
http://204.29.171.80/framer/navigation.asp?charset=utf-8&cc=US&frameid=1565&lc=en-us&providerid=113&realname=PETA&uid=1721895&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.peta-online.org
Look at the Humane Society one, they have more money.
That's why I say this analogy is unproductive, it just give them ammo to end more killing of animals for food and for hunting. What kind of hunter are you, that you need a hound, that you need a big gun, that you need a fence, that you want to see animals everyday you hunt, that you shoot a lion in Ca? One at a time, not all at once, that's to hard now, but that's what their interested in.
Get it?
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