2020 CO hunt brochures are out

[Deleted member 28227]

Also I am sad to hear that the leftover day wont be done away with this year. I was really hoping that it would go away. Its such an unfair joke of a wasted time debacle....but it sounds like (Unless I heard the guy incorrectly) this should be taken care of next year.

That wont be going away any time soon.

The thing the commissioners et al. are confused by is the concept of left over tags versus reissued tags. Leftovers, aren't a big deal... they are leftover because people didn't want them even as 2nd choice tags, or they are B tags.

Example
Last year you applied for a 1st season bull tag in the draw, then on leftover day tried to get your 4th season cow tag.
Under the new system you will apply for that 1st season bull tag, and then get to apply a second time for your cow tag. This makes getting a cow tag a lottery instead of first come first served.

Cow tags are cool, and it was a little frustrating standing in line to get one, BUT what was causing the fist fights in cabelas were the reissued tags.

In CO you can return your tag during the summer after you scout the unit and get your points back. Tons and Tons of people do this, so often you can pick up a 5 pt elk or deer tag on leftover day.
As @cedahm alluded to it's unclear if these tags will be in the secondary draw or not.

 

[oswald2581]

Question is how many of the "good" tags will be in this secondary draw?? For the last few years, I was unsuccessful for Deer license in primary draw and elected to do leftover draw. The leftover draw list comes out and there is nothing really good on it... Then the leftover list comes out in August and there are some really good tags on that, and then it is a crap shoot to get one of those tags the day leftover tags become available. Think there will be any change?

 

[Mallardsx2]

According to what I heard these returned tags that normally go to the leftover will be in the secondary drawing next season. At least thats what I heard. Maybe I didn't understand what he was saying 100%....If a guy wants to scout an area he should do it the season before, not reserve the tag and go scout then return it cause he doesn't like what he see's....

I think they are going to put the pinch on guys who are using the system to their advantage. For non-residents these late returned tags are a disaster trying to plan a hunt to Colorado unless you can be a fly by the seat of your pants kinda guy.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have someone just pay for the tag within 2-3 days of getting the tag then have the secondary draw? I mean if you dont have the money for the tag you shouldnt be applying in the first place...then the secondary people get 2-3 days to pay for theirs...... at least WE ALL (meaning everyone in the second draw) has 1 chance at those good tags on the secondary draw...

Then have a last and final third draw for whatever is left and be done with it.

Oh ya and take prefrence points for any A-tags drawn no matter the drawing.

 

[oswald2581]

According to what I heard these returned tags that normally go to the leftover will be in the secondary drawing next season. At least thats what I heard. Maybe I didn't understand what he was saying 100%....If a guy wants to scout an area he should do it the season before, not reserve the tag and go scout then return it cause he doesn't like what he see's....

I think they are going to put the pinch on guys who are using the system to their advantage. For non-residents these late returned tags are a disaster trying to plan a hunt to Colorado unless you can be a fly by the seat of your pants kinda guy.

Wouldnt it make more sense to have someone just pay for the tag within 1 week of getting the tag then have the secondary draw? I mean if you dont have the money for the tag you shouldnt be applying in the first place...

My understanding the last two years was the majority of the "returned" tags were due to credit card issues after the draw. I think you do occasionally get the actual returned tag, but I think any tag that was not awarded due to payment issues should go into secondary draw, and not wait until leftover list.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

My understanding the last two years was the majority of the "returned" tags were due to credit card issues after the draw. I think you do occasionally get the actual returned tag, but I think any tag that was not awarded due to payment issues should go into secondary draw, and not wait until leftover list.

The majority by volume probably, but the majority of the "good" tags were returned.

@Mallardsx2, it's insane, there were a ton of leftover tags that hit the list during the season. Like they had been returned on Thursday, season opened on Sat. tags were processed Monday - Tuesday, and someone pulled them off the list on weds and hunted thurs-sun.

We are talking good tags as well, some 18 to 20pt tags.

 

[vanish]

Thanks for the link. I thought I listened to all of these already, but apparently not.

This is what I heard:

"Failed payment return tags" should go in the secondary draw, but for 2020 the timeline is too short between the payment period and when the secondary draw opens for them to make the list this year. They expect 2021 and onward this shouldn't occur anymore.

That will resolve some of the leftover day demand, but I believe there are still a significant number of people who attend the leftover day fiasco because they didn't want to commit to a tag. I don't really understand but I think it has something to do with PLO tags and outfitters and such.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Thanks for the link. I thought I listened to all of these already, but apparently not.

This is what I heard:

"Failed payment return tags" should go in the secondary draw, but for 2020 the timeline is too short between the payment period and when the secondary draw opens for them to make the list this year. They expect 2021 and onward this shouldn't occur anymore.

That will resolve some of the leftover day demand, but I believe there are still a significant number of people who attend the leftover day fiasco because they didn't want to commit to a tag. I don't really understand but I think it has something to do with PLO tags and outfitters and such.

In my mind there are a couple of different "buckets" we are talking about

1. Legitimate left over tags, eg. flattops, just more tags then demand
-A few more of these will go in the secondary draw but likely no change.
2. B tags, you can only get one tag in the draw but lots of people want an additional cow tag.
-Huge change, all of these will go in secondary draw
3. Failure to pay tags
-Huge change, these will all go in the draw 2021
4. "Scouting tags" these reissued tags
-No net change as these are returned randomly

There are some more complex application strategy's that I think the inexperienced commission doesn't anticipate. I think having someone that has played the game would help.

EG.

Someone who puts P99999 in for their first choice second choice is a B Cow tag, then they pick up a leftover bull tag.
- 2 tags + preference point

Someone who applies in the hybrid draw, doesn't get it, picks up a leftover tag in the leftover draw, then gets a re-issued tag before the season.
-2 tags + preference point

IMHO Colorado just has a vastly more complex system than a lot of states and there are lots of little ways to exploit the system if you know what you're doing.

 

[oswald2581]

In my mind there are a couple of different "buckets" we are talking about

1. Legitimate left over tags, eg. flattops, just more tags then demand
-A few more of these will go in the secondary draw but likely no change.
2. B tags, you can only get one tag in the draw but lots of people want an additional cow tag.
-Huge change, all of these will go in secondary draw
3. Failure to pay tags
-Huge change, these will all go in the draw 2021
4. "Scouting tags" these reissued tags
-No net change as these are returned randomly

There are some more complex application strategy's that I think the inexperienced commission doesn't anticipate. I think having someone that has played the game would help.

EG.

Someone who puts P99999 in for their first choice second choice is a B Cow tag, then they pick up a leftover bull tag.
- 2 tags + preference point

Someone who applies in the hybrid draw, doesn't get it, picks up a leftover tag in the leftover draw, then gets a re-issued tag before the season.
-2 tags + preference point

IMHO Colorado just has a vastly more complex system than a lot of states and there are lots of little ways to exploit the system if you know what you're doing.

I get a point, a cow and a bull tag. So I have the opportunity to kill 2 elk every year while building points. The number of tags Colorado gives out is insane. Only reason the elk numbers don't decline drastically is the season dates, length and crazy amount of pressure during those dates. Colorado banks on harvest statistics being low due to pressure being packed into single week or less seasons for rifle.

If I had my choice I would rather be like Wyoming or Montana and get 1 bull tag, be able to hunt all of archery, and if not successful be able to hunt rifle with much longer seasons. Only kill one elk, but opportunity and time in field is much greater along with pressure being spread out.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I get a point, a cow and a bull tag. So I have the opportunity to kill 2 elk every year while building points. The number of tags Colorado gives out is insane. Only reason the elk numbers don't decline drastically is the season dates, length and crazy amount of pressure during those dates. Colorado banks on harvest statistics being low due to pressure being packed into single week or less seasons for rifle.

Yep, true. It is by design.

I will save Oak et al. a rant.

 

[Dsnow9]

Yep, true. It is by design.

I will save Oak et al. a rant.
View attachment 128477

My search engine broke when I plugged that in... To many results

 

[Deleted member 28227]

My search engine broke when I plugged that in... To many results

 

[vanish]

In my mind there are a couple of different "buckets" we are talking about

1. Legitimate left over tags, eg. flattops, just more tags then demand
-A few more of these will go in the secondary draw but likely no change.
2. B tags, you can only get one tag in the draw but lots of people want an additional cow tag.
-Huge change, all of these will go in secondary draw
3. Failure to pay tags
-Huge change, these will all go in the draw 2021
4. "Scouting tags" these reissued tags
-No net change as these are returned randomly

Ah yes, Point 2 is a biggie. You're absolutely right. I don't know why I didn't realize that one. That will be a significant reduction on leftover day.

 

[cedahm]

Colorado has a HUGE preference point problem and I feel that If you draw in a secondary drawing for a unit you should loose your preference points for that species...I would go as far to say that if you draw an OTC tag you should not be allowed to collect a preference point for that species that year either

As someone firmly in no-mans land, point-wise, I certainly understand your POV but asking someone to give up points for a true leftover tag that was under-subscribed or an OTC tag that is effectively permanently under-subscribed is not going to fly.

Again - at least This Year, per the Draw coordinator - the secondary draw is only going to be tags that went unclaimed in the primary draw (ie tags that still had leftover quota after everyone put in up to 4 choices) plus whatever tags are reissued in the 1-2 days between the draw result finalization and the Secondary draw posting (per his admission -in 2020 there will probably be zero of those Re-Issued tags). Making someone lose points for a tag that never would have required points and would have languished on the leftover list is punitive.

I made a sarcastic comment above regarding building follow-on draws that take ‘up to the minimum’ amount of points that a Re-Issued tag would have required in the Primary draw. I agree with you in that some form of that theory has merit in the case of Re-Issued tags. Re-platforming the draw so that it doesn't take 7 weeks is a pre-requisite to that being possible, however. I would imagine they get a little better on timeline next year and maybe in 2022 or 2023 they get the draw/payment cycle down low enough to make a substantive difference in how many Re-Issued tags are available in a July/August Secondary draw.

At least for 2020, the Secondary draw is looking to be pretty close to what the Leftover draw was, with the exception of:
- Lower barrier to entry (don't have to apply in the primary and select the option to be included)
- Incremental revenue to CPW from the application fee
- Reduction in Operating cost to the department by not having to do a bunch of mailings and run the draw as a sidebar on stressed infrastructure
- Uptick in participation and some effect on the 'Re-Issued' tag day in August, since a lot of people will be able to grab their 'B' cow tag in the Secondary and won't have to hover over their keyboard or show up to a dealer on the first Tuesday in August.

If they get the overall application/draw/payment timeline compressed (a stated goal in the linked meeting snippet) and are able to have Re-Issued tags in the secondary draw then it’s a different conversation. Bray was already signaling desires to pull peoples points outside the primary and he acknowledged a ‘preference point problem’ - so wouldn’t be surprised if this is debated soon.

Question is how many of the "good" tags will be in this secondary draw?? For the last few years, I was unsuccessful for Deer license in primary draw and elected to do leftover draw. The leftover draw list comes out and there is nothing really good on it... Then the leftover list comes out in August and there are some really good tags on that, and then it is a crap shoot to get one of those tags the day leftover tags become available. Think there will be any change?

You can listen to John Frano (Draw Coordinator) describe it @ 7:20:50 in the linked video above. This year - it will be almost exactly the same as the 'Leftover Draw' in years past given the time between the primary draw payment period and the release of the Secondary draw list. They are actively seeking to manage the timeline in future years so that Re-Issued tags (which are the 'good' tags you're referencing) will be part of the Secondary draw, but this year there is not time on the calendar to include many (probably any) of them.

I am going to continue to put Re-Issued tags in bold/italic. Because of the terminology CPW uses ("Leftover" for everything) - that term alone causes most of the misunderstanding by folks.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I am going to continue to put Re-Issued tags in bold/italic.

I think that's a good idea, across threads, as this topic inevitably will crop up again and again.

 

[beginnerhunter]

In the future, could they make it to where a RE-ISSUED tag drawn in the secondary draw will take your points but a LEFTOVER tag will not?

 

[beginnerhunter]

In the future, could they make it to where a RE-ISSUED tag drawn in the secondary draw will take your points but a LEFTOVER tag will not?

I should be clearer, a REISSUED tag that took points to draw in the initial draw...

 

[cedahm]

I should be clearer, a REISSUED tag that took points to draw in the initial draw...

I alluded to it in another post, but I think there's merit to something like that down the road. Maybe take 'up to' the amount of points the tag would have required in the Primary draw. Basically it would be a form of Point Banking like they tried a decade ago. At the very least, they could simply take away/not award a point for THAT application year if you get a Re-Issued tag that would have required points in the Primary.

A lot of devils would be in the design and implementation, though and until they can get the draw/payment cycle time down substantially it's a moot point.

In the end - the only way to truly simplify the draw, tone down the Re-Issue tag madness, and curb point drama is to get rid of points (not happening) and/or eliminate or severely restrict the ability to return tags (damn unlikely).

 

[Oak]

Yep, true. It is by design.

I will save Oak et al. a rant.

I don't think I've ever discussed Tabor intentionally.

My frustration with this whole process (and most of what the Commission does these days) is that it is piecemeal and reactionary. And it's largely reactionary because it was done piecemeal and on the fly the first time without thinking through the consequences of their actions. And it's clear by listening to that audio from the November Commission meeting that they still don't understand the existing situation and will likely be coming back again this year for some more tweaking. They are exacerbating a situation that is already frustrating and confusing to a lot of their consumers. That's my rant.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I don't think I've ever discussed Tabor intentionally.

My frustration with this whole process (and most of what the Commission does these days) is that it is piecemeal and reactionary. And it's largely reactionary because it was done piecemeal and on the fly the first time without thinking through the consequences of their actions. And it's clear by listening to that audio from the November Commission meeting that they still don't understand the existing situation and will likely be coming back again this year for some more tweaking. They are exacerbating a situation that is already frustrating and confusing to a lot of their consumers. That's my rant.

*subjecting you to a rant

I have often wondered if a commissioner would accept a lunch invitation, where I just walked them through my application strategy. I think it could highlight some issue, and give them a better sense of what the process looks like from the consumer end.

 

[Dinkshooter]

I would love for a Re-Issue tag to burn up points!