2015 Private lands Leased to Outfitters map

[billy banger]

Shoots-here is my answer: last year I didn't get to hunt the late seasons, so I and many of other Montana hunters lost those opportunities. The shoulder seasons, who I believe you also opposed, aren't going to open as many hunting districts as did the late season cow hunt bill, so there again we are going to have less opportunities.

This isn't about wildlife management and it certainly isn't about working with landowners. By not working with landowners you and your groups are causing more and more land to be closed to the real hunters out there. Your quote; "I'm sure you would rather see antlerless elk harvest after season, that way it doesn't interfere with paid trophy hunts. Toss the peasants the crumbs and they will be happy". I don't care about trophy hunting or who is going on those trophy hunts and I certainly don't consider myself a peasant and myself along with many Montana hunters don't consider hunting during the late season getting the crumbs. I appreciate any access landowners can provide us, but you and your groups are only making it worse. You go on the defensive when we don't agree with your agenda. So please stop saying you and your groups represent us, you don't.

 

[MTGomer]

On the map issue.... Its interesting to see the daily struggles of my professional career bleed over into the hunting arena. A GIS Tech put together something without having a clue of the reliability of their metadata?? Nah, couldn't be. I'm shocked.
GIS is an amazing, powerful and time saving tool, when applied appropriately. When it isn't you get this.
You think it stands for Geographic Information System. It doesn't. It stands for Get It Surveyed.

 

[shoots-straight]

Billy, if you didn't partake in a late season cow hunt then it's on you. There was ample opportunity to do so and many elk were shot last year. The shoulder seasons are opening up 44 hunting districts, SB 245 did not say what districts were going to be open, that was up to the department. It said that they may have late hunts in HD's that are over objective. SB 245 did not mandate a late cow hunt in every hunting district in the state.

AS for working with landowners, you haven't a clue. The hook and bullet group I'm on the BOD for, had sat down with landowners to forge the new "Shoulder Season" model. It was done here in the Bitterroot First. My group helped design this thing to help the landowners out. It has mutated sense then. Our "Shoulder Season" wasn't intended to kill elk on public lands. Hunting was not allowed there. We don't want to teach the good elk that live on our public lands to flee to some harboring areas. That's what is going to happen with this shoulder season as it is now.

The Hook and Bullet organization I work the most with supported the Shoulder seasons as we helped put them together. The next step is to get realistic objective numbers in place to protect elk on public lands from annihilation.

I believe that your best represented by MOGA are you not?

 

[billy banger]

Boy you couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe you should wait until the weather changes to go fishing.

 

[shoots-straight]

Boy you couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe you should wait until the weather changes to go fishing.

Billy, you show up about twice a year throwing out disparaging comments about MSA, MWF and other Hook and bullet groups and their work. Always claiming that they don't represent you or anyone you know.

23 total posts total, all saying the same stuff. So who does represent you? MWF has close to 5000 members and affiliates. They do speak for a number of sportsman wouldn't you say? Are you a member of a larger organization that stands up for the Montana Sportsman, and Wildlife?

Or just an antagonist sent here to try and degrade the hard work sportsman volunteers do?

What exactly have you done?

 

[The Hedgehog]

..last year I didn't get to hunt the late seasons, so I and many of other Montana hunters lost those opportunities. ... so there again we are going to have less opportunities.

they want to force landowners to open up during the regular season.

Who doesn't have plenty of "opportunity" with 10 weeks of general season?

How can you "force" a landowner to do anything?

Please explain, without crying.

 

[Eric Albus]

shoots,

I will speak strictly to where I am familiar, so this applies only to NE Mt., Reg. 6....

You are correct that elk numbers are nowhere near carry capacity of the habitat. We could have hundreds more elk and not even begin to degrade habitat here, but the ensuing crop damage would not be acceptable. Landowner tolerance must also be taken into consideration. With that caveat elk numbers are over objective. If it takes hunting cows before/during/after the 5 week seasons to get numbers back to objective so be it...

I am on the outside looking in when it comes to access to elk, just like you(I assume from your comments)...however I do not view the PRIVILEDGE of accessing private property to shoot a cow elk as "getting the crumbs" like you do. I see it as an opportunity take an elk, and get numbers back to objective.

 

[Eric Albus]

now, we have gotten completely off subject of the map and turned this into a management discussion.... seems nearly every discussion turns this way. perhaps if accessible lands were better managed there would not be a problem? seems someone mentioned that in an earlier post. perhaps that is the common ground that we should all be working toward, instead of furthering the division between landowners and the sporting community.

 

[The Hedgehog]

shoots,

I will speak strictly to where I am familiar, so this applies only to NE Mt., Reg. 6....

You are correct that elk numbers are nowhere near carry capacity of the habitat. We could have hundreds more elk and not even begin to degrade habitat here, but the ensuing crop damage would not be acceptable. Landowner tolerance must also be taken into consideration. With that caveat elk numbers are over objective. If it takes hunting cows before/during/after the 5 week seasons to get numbers back to objective so be it...

I am on the outside looking in when it comes to access to elk, just like you(I assume from your comments)...however I do not view the PRIVILEDGE of accessing private property to shoot a cow elk as "getting the crumbs" like you do. I see it as an opportunity take an elk, and get numbers back to objective.

Therein lies the rub - the "objective" is from a terrible and outdated elk management plan.

If landowners cannot "tolerate" elk numbers, 10 weeks is plenty of time to put the hammer down on them, or put a fence around their haystack.

 

[billy banger]

I couldn't agree with Eric more. I have been saying for years that we need to work with landowners in order to gain more access. By not wanting the late seasons cow hunts because they would help landowners manage elk populations is certainly not working with landowners. Isn't that what you mean when you say you don't want the crumbs from the table? If not please explain. After all, isn't it all about trying to gain access during the regular season? Enough Said!

 

[The Hedgehog]

After all, isn't it all about trying to gain access during the regular season? Enough Said!

No. Good chunk of folks could care less about tea bagging a landowner to get access.

 

[Ben Lamb]

"Working with landowners" has long been political speak for "give us what we want regardless of what you want." - Just as "we want access" has been viewed by landowners as "give us your land." Politically speaking again.

Works both ways. Glad to see Billy & Eric supporting Gov Bullock and the shoulder seasons though.

The management part of this isn't terribly difficult, once we get the right people in the room. Unfortunately, this map doesn't help do that. Eric, I've always been impressed with your ability to argue your position well, and use some compelling points. You should consider applying for the PLPW committee. I'd back that nomination.

 

[JLS]

perhaps if accessible lands were better managed there would not be a problem? seems someone mentioned that in an earlier post. perhaps that is the common ground that we should all be working toward, instead of furthering the division between landowners and the sporting community.

Eric,

It has been my personal experience and anecdotal observations that it is not a habitat quality issue in regards to the accessible public lands (save some DNR parcels). It is a refuge/safe zone issue. You don't fix that without access to the refuge areas.

 

[Eric Albus]

Thanks Ben.... I think, however, it is not Bullock I support with the shoulder season....it is common sense management that I support the shoulder season.

Greenhorn, the numbers of elk in the breaks were never set according to habitat. Those numbers were set by FWP actually WORKING with and Listening to the landowners and what their tolerance for elk would be. I knew a lot of the old time ranchers in the breaks, and if they had known how bad elk actually are they never would have agreed to having 1 elk hauled out of Yellowstone and dumped in the breaks.

JLS, you completely missed the "management" I bespoke of...I am not talking about land management, I was speaking to "hunter management". In order to keep elk on a private parcel the owners "manage" their hunting/hunters to not chase the elk off. Were the public managed/educated to not chase the elk to the King's X they would have elk to hunt every day. Because in many cases the public lands are far superior habitat for wildlife.

 

[JLS]

Eric,

Gotcha. I misunderstood what you were referring to as management.

 

[Pierre]

Back in town.
"Eric
straight, yes there have been several instances of outfitters forgetting to writing down a doe, duck, pheasant, and have had punitive actions levied against them resulting in fines and probation. "

Eric, If you can't follow rules, get out. Any tickets for not reporting correctly are mistakes? Lets never ticket anyone cause they will say it was a mistake?? Seems a chickchit excuse. How about those outfitters not making a mistake but doing things illegally?? You folks have proven time and again you need to be monitored closely. Ever been to a Boo meeting that discussed infractions (many are major) and the hand slapping endorsed by your folks??? The Boo has more complaints than most any board. Coincidence?, I think not. Need that towel??
Fact is we all have our bad eggs. Getting rid of slob hunters for our groups is paramount. Your group seems totally uninterested in making sure your industry's reputation is sollid and it damn sure isn't.
Billy, I suppose 7.5 million acres of block management isn't working with landowners? How about a very good upland qame bird program. We can't do much with private land outfitters, harborers, and landowners just not interested, who won't lift a finger to help themselves....and you want it done at our expense. I always find it interesting that you folks whining about us not working with landowners are the same ones with their hands out and willing to do nothing.
We stood against your bill on shoulder seasons because once again, you folks run to the legislature to bypass having to work within the public process. We will likely stand against you folks on anything trying to legislate your way over public process. Another good example of you folks and your efforts at working with opposition!
Shoulder seasons are to be a short term solution. Even tho you'll try to legislate your way out of performance criteria. Late season "hunts" may be your bag but there are also management problems with seasons not running concurrently. I don't remember you folks standing up for any solutions on brucella or CWD....common amongst problematic concentrations of wildlife. Are you willing to stand up for higher grazing fees to support better habitat mgmt on public lands? Are you willing to stand up for more FTE"s for FWP for wardens and boots on the ground to help with hunts on private land. Or are you going to sit on your backside and complain.
For many of us, an elk at any cost is not hunting and not necessarily ethical. I don't ever recall you folks being concerned about group shoots, wounded critters, AND any concern for the critters being hunted while heavy with calf during the toughest part of their year. Lets sacrifice all these things so you can have an easy elk hunt (effect) without doing anything to address the problems (cause).
All boiled down, this is a group trying to get out of doing anything, blaming others, and wanting rescued and wanting it paid for by someone else. Sounds democratic doesn't it.