Yellowstone Wolves 25 Years Later

[WyoDoug]

Thoughts? Do you agree? I am very biased having grown up around cattle. We had losses to wolves and coyotes especially during calving season. I also have seen reports with wolves killed a number of elk in a herd and didn't eat them. I do not totally agree with the study as it seems to be too wolf biased and driven to support increasing the wolf population further.

I do agree that proper wolf management is good for the ecosystem but needs to be done wisely and with respect to livestock too. The numbers need to be kept in check with what the local habitat will support without becoming an excessive threat to livestock. You can't do away with them entirely or you bounce the ecosystem so out of whack that it is dangerous to the animals that wolfes fed on.

With coyotes, we had problems with them killing newborn calves and chickens mainly. If coyotes aint killing calves and chickens then they are welcome at thinning prairie dogs, ground squirrels and rabbits. They also used to feed on our plum trees and ate all the ones that fell to the ground. Can't exterminate coyotes or foxes either or you have an over-population of rodents, rabbits and other animals that then become destructive beyond what the predators did.

My feeling is there needs to be a balance and that needs to include managed hunting seasons.

YELLOWSTONE WOLVES: 25 YEARS LATER | EHUNTR

YELLOWSTONE WOLVES: 25 YEARS LATER - President Theodore Roosevelt once said, generally, that wolves are "beasts of waste and desolation." But

www.ehuntr.com

 

[ClearCreek]

I am very biased having grown up around cattle. We had losses to wolves and coyotes especially during calving season.

Where did you grow up that you had cattle losses to wolves?

ClearCreek

 

[WyoDoug]

Craig and Meeker, Colorado for wolves and lions up until I was around 8 and then we moved to eastern Colorado Limon and Fort Morgan for coyotes. One of my uncles had a ranch near Afton, Wyoming and had a lot of calf kills by wolves. Keep in mind that most people claimed Colorado didn't have wolves back then. I beg to differ. Don't remember a lot specifically about wolves because I was young then but I remember a lot stories they told of losses from the rancher that my dad worked for when I was little and seeing skeletons torn apart by wolves. I also remember the rancher setting explosive devices out for wolves and my dad warning me to stay away from them.

You talk to ranchers and farmers you will not find many fans of wolves and coyotes with them.

 

[SAJ-99]

This sentence caught my attention "What are your thoughts on this? Do you agree with the findings?". Findings are findings. Asking for "thoughts" on findings seems to imply you can agree or disagree with facts. It's disconcerting. You have to manage to the known facts and not peoples opinions or you go down a rabbit hole you might never get out of. See Montana Elk Management plan for example.

@WyoDoug, I thought wolves were eliminated from CO pre-WWII (recalling that from an article on the more recent debate, so take with a grain of salt). You have to admit relying on rancher stories is like getting your news from the local bar every Friday night. Sometimes its accurate and sometimes it isn't.

 

[WyoDoug]

This sentence caught my attention "What are your thoughts on this? Do you agree with the findings?". Findings are findings. Asking for "thoughts" on findings seems to imply you can agree or disagree with facts. It's disconcerting. You have to manage to the known facts and not peoples opinions or you go down a rabbit hole you might never get out of. See Montana Elk Management plan for example.

@WyoDoug, I thought wolves were eliminated from CO pre-WWII (recalling that from an article on the more recent debate, so take with a grain of salt). You have to admit relying on rancher stories is like getting your news from the local bar every Friday night. Sometimes its accurate and sometimes it isn't.

They thought wolves were exterminated yes and to a degree that practically happened, but tracks and kill sites keep showing up. I witnessed my uncle and dad bringing in a dead wolf when I was little too (mid 60s I think). There were not many but they were there. Ranchers did everything the could to kill wolves back then if they showed up. They still existed at least in the northwest corner of the state west of the divide. Ranchers did their best to eliminate them yes, but I do not think they succeeded entirely. We still found wolf tracks on my uncles ranch, least back then that was what they identified the tracks to me. My feeling is they adapted so they could survive and were not 100% exterminated like people think they were.

There was doubt on stories of the gray wolves around Craig, but suddenly they were witness by biologist and denial of their existence turned into probables and positives. Something I was always taught was never to be afraid to question authority on any subject. This is one area where I will in a heart beat because there is no study that is 100% accurate. Studies are based on theories and how they test those theories. The better ones are based on subjects and they let the cards fall where they may. But to say wolves were totally eliminated is more of an old wives tales.

The deal is studies are not necessarily "facts" but reports of observations of the people involved in them. They are published by humans and as such have a bias. Many are wrote with pro-Wolf, pro-animal rights bias.

 

[wyoboypt]

Wolves don’t kill for fun??? How about a couple years ago in pinedale Wyoming? Where they killed over 20 in a night and left. All these scientists and biologists just trying to protect the wolves. It’s ridiculous.

 

[Dunning Kruger]

Wolves don’t kill for fun??? How about a couple years ago in pinedale Wyoming? Where they killed over 20 in a night and left. All these scientists and biologists just trying to protect the wolves. It’s ridiculous.

They certainly do. Hell, cougars do too. A while back a big healthy tom cat killed 13 alpacas in one night not far from me. Just went on a killing spree for the hell of it.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I routinely kill more than I or my family can eat before it would spoil in natural conditions. Thankfully we have a freezer and have the ability to preserve the excess until we can use it at a later date.

Wolves doing their what wolves do, lions doing what lions doing. Elk doing what elk do.... Why do we have to anthropomorphize what animals do and judge them according to what would be ethical for humans?

If we did that, how would beef cattle and the people who raise and depend on them for their livelihood fare in the court of public opinion?

 

[Dunning Kruger]

Its not about judging the ethics of the animals, but when anti hunters say wolves only kill what they eat, thats a flat out lie and they should be called out on it. Theyre lying to the public, to the masses that only know what these people tell them, and the public believes it because its declared "science." Then you have a bunch of misinformed people who actually believe this crap, and those people vote. They vote to stop predator management because they believe the nonsense that predators dont sport kill, and they only kill the sick / injured.

 

[BuzzH]

Its not about judging the ethics of the animals, but when anti hunters say wolves only kill what they eat, thats a flat out lie and they should be called out on it. Theyre lying to the public, to the masses that only know what these people tell them, and the public believes it because its declared "science." Then you have a bunch of misinformed people who actually believe this crap, and those people vote. They vote to stop predator management because they believe the nonsense that predators dont sport kill, and they only kill the sick / injured.

Also equally ridiculous to point to isolated and very rare cases where some really strange circumstances result in excess kills by predators and to imply that it happens all the time...wouldn't you agree?

You want to see some sport and excess killing, get a nice size herd of elk in open, easily accessible areas with a bunch of people "hunting" them...shit show defined. Multiple unclaimed elk, elk running off with flat tires, shot in the guts, you name it...

 

[Gerald Martin]

Its not about judging the ethics of the animals, but when anti hunters say wolves only kill what they eat, thats a flat out lie and they should be called out on it. Theyre lying to the public, to the masses that only know what these people tell them, and the public believes it because its declared "science." Then you have a bunch of misinformed people who actually believe this crap, and those people vote. They vote to stop predator management because they believe the nonsense that predators dont sport kill, and they only kill the sick / injured.

The tendency of people to believe only what they want to believe and vote according to that bias isn’t contained to the anti-hunting community.....

How do we move beyond those biases and make appropriate management decisions? Who gets to define what the proper priorities are?

 

[Dunning Kruger]

Also equally ridiculous to point to isolated and very rare cases where some really strange circumstances result in excess kills by predators and to imply that it happens all the time...wouldn't you agree?

You want to see some sport and excess killing, get a nice size herd of elk in open, easily accessible areas with a bunch of people "hunting" them...shit show defined. Multiple unclaimed elk, elk running off with flat tires, shot in the guts, you name it...

I never said people dont do it to. And i dont believe sport killing by predators is so isolated and rare as you claim. Ive seen wolf killed moose that werent consumed, at least not much. Predators are hardwired to kill, its what they do. Im not trying to put any morals or ethics on it, just stating my understanding of the truth. They do what they do, and im not saying theyre evil because of it, but we need to take that into consideration when we set management policies so that there is enough prey to go around for us too.

 

[BuzzH]

I spend enough times in the woods to know it doesn't happen often. They're rare enough that when found, people take photos and cite it as proof for DECADES after it happens.

It does happen, but go out and try to kill an elk with your teeth and claws sometime and see how you feel afterwards. Wolves and lions get the living chit beat out of them making kills, its not like elk and deer just wave the white flag when a predator latches on to them.

Another reason why excess killing is so rare, it has to be a situation where animals are highly vulnerable, unable to run off, etc. for it to happen.

It happens rarely enough that I don't believe it has to be a very significant part of, or even a consideration at all, in a predator management plan.

 

[Hammsolo]

Thoughts? Do you agree? I am very biased having grown up around cattle. We had losses to wolves and coyotes especially during calving season. I also have seen reports with wolves killed a number of elk in a herd and didn't eat them. I do not totally agree with the study as it seems to be too wolf biased and driven to support increasing the wolf population further.

I do agree that proper wolf management is good for the ecosystem but needs to be done wisely and with respect to livestock too. The numbers need to be kept in check with what the local habitat will support without becoming an excessive threat to livestock. You can't do away with them entirely or you bounce the ecosystem so out of whack that it is dangerous to the animals that wolfes fed on.

With coyotes, we had problems with them killing newborn calves and chickens mainly. If coyotes aint killing calves and chickens then they are welcome at thinning prairie dogs, ground squirrels and rabbits. They also used to feed on our plum trees and ate all the ones that fell to the ground. Can't exterminate coyotes or foxes either or you have an over-population of rodents, rabbits and other animals that then become destructive beyond what the predators did.

My feeling is there needs to be a balance and that needs to include managed hunting seasons.

YELLOWSTONE WOLVES: 25 YEARS LATER | EHUNTR

YELLOWSTONE WOLVES: 25 YEARS LATER - President Theodore Roosevelt once said, generally, that wolves are "beasts of waste and desolation." But

www.ehuntr.com

I love hearing that here. I am a hunter, obviously... also a scientist, a conservationist, and yes a true environmentalist (which has been misconstrued). Wolves have a place, as do we. Ecosystems are complex webs that are nearly impossible to truly understand. They are made up of living and non-living factors that each play a role. We must study those roles and manage them, because we are part of that system. No creature including us and wolves should gain privilege over others. I strive to resist emotion, have measured opinions based on researched facts. I hunt predators as a manager. Oh, and there a kick in the A to match wits against.

 

[Sytes]

Wolves need effective quotas matched w/ ungulate populations, etc... Not some bull chit, because it borders Glacier National Park they were worried about the extreme environmental wackos... Heck, the extreme environmental wackos are upset regardless and paid handsomely to continue w/ injunctions... The long fight to get wolves into State Management is a true testament to that ***Fact.
Next, look at griz...

They belong though not in any shape beyond objective biological management. And NOT CBD style of bogus biological "scientific" studies.

 

[jeremys4]

Sorry but we went off on a tangent my grandfather came to America and herded sheep one night a mom and two kittens killed 46 sheep none eaten all killed for sport. I’ve had cows killed by coyotes when giving birth. I’m sure the cows were having complications but I’ll kill every predator given a chance sorry survival of the fittest.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Wolves = native species = not endangered = should be managed thru hunting/trapping. Really long story shortened for everyone's convenience.

Really is nothing else to it. We live here and we are trying to make a living just like them...and we have opposable thumbs......

 

[Hammsolo]

Making a living requires adequate income, a diversified portfolio and informed budgeting for the short and long term. That’s math!

 

[Bowhunter999]

Thoughts? Do you agree? I am very biased having grown up around cattle. We had losses to wolves and coyotes especially during calving season. I also have seen reports with wolves killed a number of elk in a herd and didn't eat them. I do not totally agree with the study as it seems to be too wolf biased and driven to support increasing the wolf population further.

I do agree that proper wolf management is good for the ecosystem but needs to be done wisely and with respect to livestock too. The numbers need to be kept in check with what the local habitat will support without becoming an excessive threat to livestock. You can't do away with them entirely or you bounce the ecosystem so out of whack that it is dangerous to the animals that wolfes fed on.

With coyotes, we had problems with them killing newborn calves and chickens mainly. If coyotes aint killing calves and chickens then they are welcome at thinning prairie dogs, ground squirrels and rabbits. They also used to feed on our plum trees and ate all the ones that fell to the ground. Can't exterminate coyotes or foxes either or you have an over-population of rodents, rabbits and other animals that then become destructive beyond what the predators did.

My feeling is there needs to be a balance and that needs to include managed hunting seasons.

YELLOWSTONE WOLVES: 25 YEARS LATER | EHUNTR

YELLOWSTONE WOLVES: 25 YEARS LATER - President Theodore Roosevelt once said, generally, that wolves are "beasts of waste and desolation." But

www.ehuntr.com

“My feeling is there needs to be a balance and that needs to include managed hunting seasons.”

It would appear WyoDoug, that would be only common sense to a normal individual. But, with the thinking of some biased wolf people, that common sense seems to evade their.........well, common sense ! Anytime a predator that is near the top of the food chain is allowed to have complete protection, it is without doubt, that it will continue to advance it’s population as long as a food source is available. Many times those who wish to relocate an area with predators, are those who are not directly involved in the consequences of such actions. Predators must be kept in control and not given biased standards of protection just to make some ‘easteners’ feel good about it !

 

[Hammsolo]

“My feeling is there needs to be a balance and that needs to include managed hunting seasons.”

It would appear WyoDoug, that would be only common sense to a normal individual. But, with the thinking of some biased wolf people, that common sense seems to evade their.........well, common sense ! Anytime a predator that is near the top of the food chain is allowed to have complete protection, it is without doubt, that it will continue to advance it’s population as long as a food source is available. Many times those who wish to relocate an area with predators, are those who are not directly involved in the consequences of such actions. Predators must be kept in control and not given biased standards of protection just to make some ‘easteners’ feel good about it !

Another case where the extremes don’t work. Should we completely protect every wolf with some Star Wars like force field? Should we wipe the west clean of them using whatever means necessary? Science says they’re an important part of the system. Science says we are a key part of the system, and the only one that can collect data and mange populations. I guess that’s our job then. I dream of hunting grey wolves and griz in the loader 48.