PEAX Equipment

Yellowstone Elk

BigHornRam said:
MSU has also done some very cool work identifying suitable summer and winter range areas in the Madison range. Can't find a link at this time. Keep an eye on the work that is coming from there. Impressive!
Click to expand...

MSU has some great and very knowledgable people working on sheep and other species. They work together with FWP on a lot of research.
 
shoots-straight said:
WE are blessed to have some Bio's that really care. Buzz has to remember that the management of our game herds has been dictated by Landowners, and the legislature. Bio's have serious sideboards attached to what they can do and must do. It's between a rock and a granite wall how they are suppose to manage. This is why so many of the old guard left recently.
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Robert,

I agree that politics make it very tough to practice real management and biology. But, that doesn't excuse some of the decisions that some of the senior biologists have made over the years either. Anybody want to talk about the goat hunting in the Bitterroot? How about the Sapphires? How about the Bob Marshall? Reading through the regulations this year, I noticed the Bitterroot, where they issued 75 tags the first year I applied there, now is issuing ONE. I think this is a function of the same thing I was told about the elk West of Missoula, "with so few left, killing a few more wont matter"...directly from a senior biologist.

How about another biologist admitting that keeping a whitetail doe season, where each hunter could kill 3 with OTC tags (and another if you drew a b-tag), all the while dropping lion harvest from 80-120 a year, to 10, went on for at least 2 years too long? This in spite of what he was told by another biologist that has since moved on. What legislation/legislator made that call?

For the record, last year, myself and a bunch of others had to about beg the same guy to not open that area up for a 9 day whitetail doe season last year, after just admitting he screwed up killing too many whitetail for way too long via the 4 per hunter scenario I mentioned. Tried doing the same thing in the 80's and 90's when they slaughtered mule deer does via 3-9 day doe seasons on them. We were ignored and the mule deer population in that unit doesn't warrant a season at all, let alone unlimited OTC hunting for 11 weeks, including through the rut. The major drainage I hunt, I haven't seen a mule deer there in 9 years, yet everyone with an A-tag can hunt them 11 weeks. Whitetails aren't even half of what they used to be, and the population is estimated via a count from the highway.

Speaking of counts, how is it, according to data provided via the FWP biologist, that they kill more bulls than they say exist in the unit I used to hunt for elk? They are supposedly killing more bull elk than are available. When I questioned this "data" I was told that some bulls must be wandering in from surrounding units. Even if that were true, which I'm highly suspect of, is it right to essentially be killing every available brow tined bull you have each year? Is that good biology? Is that good management?

I also know another biologist, a good one too, that pushed back when a bad decision on elk management in the Clarks Fork was about to made...guess what, fired for doing what's best for elk.

How about another biologist telling me that they "know what to do when we have too many elk, but don't know what to do when we don't have enough"...politics play into that for sure, but not exactly a warm fuzzy feeling hearing that.

In no other State that I hunt, have I even heard of these types of things happening.

I also agree that there are biologists that care and know how to manage, but sadly, most of the ones that I know/knew are soon beat down or leave. If they get lucky, like in the case BHR posted, they might find a small niche to practice some sort of biology. But if not, they either go along and fall in line, or they get fired, just like I mentioned above.

I do agree with BHR, I don't see how they stay when they cant even adjust a season and are forced to authorize things like shoulder seasons. Akin to asking a carpenter to build a house without cutting a board...
 
I also know another biologist, a good one too, that pushed back when a bad decision on elk management in the Clarks Fork was about to made...guess what, fired for doing what's best for elk.
Click to expand...

My point, thanks for adding info!

I also agree that there are biologists that care and know how to manage, but sadly, most of the ones that I know/knew are soon beat down or leave. If they get lucky, like in the case BHR posted, they might find a small niche to practice some sort of biology. But if not, they either go along and fall in line, or they get fired, just like I mentioned above.
Click to expand...

This is what my comment was centered on.

I can't comment on the areas you hunt that kill more bulls than they count. Obviously the counts suck. Our bio works her but off to count bulls and I'd bet she counts some twice.

I understand your frustration, as they say I feel you, (not literally). We work in the Root very hard to keep a couple of the HD's at a level that's far from great, but at least it will provide a rag horn every now and again a nice bull or deer.

Hopefully we as sportsman will show up in Helena and make our voices heard. I'm not holding my breath on that though. The one thing I have learned is not to count on my fellow sportsman to show up for the resource, just when they lose the opportunity to kill it.

We have passed along information from time to time to other sportsman's groups on what worked for us to keep some goals in mind and never got responses back from those groups. Now all I hear is people comment on the Elk Plan, this and that, and page 55. TJones sent that info out about 15 years ago. Everyone should have been up to speed.

I do wish that there would be some massive concern shown for the Goats in Montana, as I feel they have one foot in the grave and the other is on a banana peel.
 
BuzzH said:
Robert,

I agree that politics make it very tough to practice real management and biology. But, that doesn't excuse some of the decisions that some of the senior biologists have made over the years either. Anybody want to talk about the goat hunting in the Bitterroot? How about the Sapphires? How about the Bob Marshall? Reading through the regulations this year, I noticed the Bitterroot, where they issued 75 tags the first year I applied there, now is issuing ONE. I think this is a function of the same thing I was told about the elk West of Missoula, "with so few left, killing a few more wont matter"...directly from a senior biologist.

How about another biologist admitting that keeping a whitetail doe season, where each hunter could kill 3 with OTC tags (and another if you drew a b-tag), all the while dropping lion harvest from 80-120 a year, to 10, went on for at least 2 years too long? This in spite of what he was told by another biologist that has since moved on. What legislation/legislator made that call?

For the record, last year, myself and a bunch of others had to about beg the same guy to not open that area up for a 9 day whitetail doe season last year, after just admitting he screwed up killing too many whitetail for way too long via the 4 per hunter scenario I mentioned. Tried doing the same thing in the 80's and 90's when they slaughtered mule deer does via 3-9 day doe seasons on them. We were ignored and the mule deer population in that unit doesn't warrant a season at all, let alone unlimited OTC hunting for 11 weeks, including through the rut. The major drainage I hunt, I haven't seen a mule deer there in 9 years, yet everyone with an A-tag can hunt them 11 weeks. Whitetails aren't even half of what they used to be, and the population is estimated via a count from the highway.

Speaking of counts, how is it, according to data provided via the FWP biologist, that they kill more bulls than they say exist in the unit I used to hunt for elk? They are supposedly killing more bull elk than are available. When I questioned this "data" I was told that some bulls must be wandering in from surrounding units. Even if that were true, which I'm highly suspect of, is it right to essentially be killing every available brow tined bull you have each year? Is that good biology? Is that good management?

I also know another biologist, a good one too, that pushed back when a bad decision on elk management in the Clarks Fork was about to made...guess what, fired for doing what's best for elk.

How about another biologist telling me that they "know what to do when we have too many elk, but don't know what to do when we don't have enough"...politics play into that for sure, but not exactly a warm fuzzy feeling hearing that.

In no other State that I hunt, have I even heard of these types of things happening.

I also agree that there are biologists that care and know how to manage, but sadly, most of the ones that I know/knew are soon beat down or leave. If they get lucky, like in the case BHR posted, they might find a small niche to practice some sort of biology. But if not, they either go along and fall in line, or they get fired, just like I mentioned above.

I do agree with BHR, I don't see how they stay when they cant even adjust a season and are forced to authorize things like shoulder seasons. Akin to asking a carpenter to build a house without cutting a board...
Click to expand...

There’s so few elk left so killing a few more won’t hurt anything ..........

That just may be the dumbest thing I ever heard ... this was a biologist that said that ? Wow
 
8andcounting said:
There’s so few elk left so killing a few more won’t hurt anything ..........

That just may be the dumbest thing I ever heard ... this was a biologist that said that ? Wow
Click to expand...

What else do you say to justify an 11 week OTC season in an area where they observe 8 elk flying it? The population we found (8 elk) can sustain our management decision of allowing 11 weeks of OTC general elk hunting?

Then I get chitty grams for saying its poor management? Well who makes the decisions on management to allow that to continue? Santa Claus? Where does the buck stop?

Further, all I can do is point out their numbers, and ask for clarification on what biology and management scheme is used to keep a season going for 11 weeks again OTC tags for R's, another 17K for NR's and pretend that's sound biology and wildlife management?

I'm some how the bad guy for pointing out that those responsible for managing wildlife in Montana are, and have been, dropping the ball for a long time.

Its so bad that I haven't bought an elk tag there in several years, because I don't like feeling guilty pulling the trigger, knowing that killing an elk is doing harm to what little is left. I wont participate in that kind of crap...wont do it. Those elk deserve proper management and they aren't getting it. The blame lies with the Agency I expect to manage them, that's what they're paid for, that's what hunters buy tags for. That's what some people donate their time for, to see our herds sustained, not so that they can be reduced to 8 elk. Not so that the Bob Marshall can be flown and find 202 elk in it.

If that's the best that can be done, some heads need to roll...
 
Pronghorn, another FWP success story...

Still managing about 1/4 of the State as one giant area where harvest isn't controlled within specific areas at all. A place, that not that long ago, was issuing 17,000 either sex pronghorn tags with every one of those 17,000 people offered 2 additional doe/fawn tags...and another region wide, unlimited OTC tag offered for doe/fawn.

Down to 8000 either sex and 1500 doe/fawn tags...which from what I've seen in region 7, is pretty hard to justify that level of tags for the available pronghorn.
 
Buzz your comments on FWP are one of the reasons why I want to know more about the greater Bob area. It seems like it can't be as bad you speak, or that maybe the populations used to be artificially high... something, I just can't see where a wildlife agency would systematically work to eliminate the wildlife.
 
neffa3 said:
Buzz your comments on FWP are one of the reasons why I want to know more about the greater Bob area. It seems like it can't be as bad you speak, or that maybe the populations used to be artificially high... something, I just can't see where a wildlife agency would systematically work to eliminate the wildlife.
Click to expand...

Here's their numbers...tell me where I'm wrong. Send me your email in a PM and I'll forward you the entire PDF.

Elk numbers have fallen in the Bob since 1990-92 when about 1500 were observed...down to 202 in 2017 in 9 hours flying. Same exact season dates, including early rifle hunting starting September 15 and going through late November early December, same as they've been since I started hunting in 1979, probably no different than when my Dad started hunting in 1957. I'm sure some of these elk are also now being hunted during shoulder seasons too.

I don't know what you want me to say? Lie and say its just good management? I'm at a loss...

Observer(s): Calves per 100
cows: 8
Flight time: 9 hours Bulls per 100 cows:
6
Cost (@$425.00/hr): $3825

On 20- May 2017, we counted and classified elk from a helicopter in the South Fork of the
Flathead River within hunting districts 140 and 150, from Youngs Creek to Dry Parks (Table 1).
On 20 May 2018, Rob Cherot was the pilot, and Perry Brown and I were the observers; whereas on
the 21 – 22 May, Ken Justus was the pilot and I was the only observer. Low lying meadows were
fully green and snowline was high. The south facing slopes, particularly in the 2015 burn areas
were also showing signs of emergent vegetation. Youngs Creek was blackened from the 2017
burn with only a few small patches of green vegetation. That drainage was relatively devoid of
forage for elk. Skies were clear, and the wind was calm and conditions were optimal for sighting
elk. Surveys were conducted from 0600 to 0820.

Unfortunately, this year we had a prolonged winter, with deep snows and late green-up. The
helicopter was not available for surveys due to conflicts with other biologists and maintenance
requirements, which made it impossible to conduct surveys earlier. Spring green-up conditions
were past prime for surveying, and the timing of our survey was also approaching the beginning of
calving; we observed several single female elk in heavily wooded areas separate from any herd.
Therefore, it appears we missed optimal timing for surveys by over a week, and due to the poor
timing of the survey, I would not use these numbers in any trend analysis.
We observed a total of 202 elk, with a calf:cow ratio of 8 calves to 100 cows and a bull:cow ratio
of 6 bulls to 100 cows (Table 1; Figures 1 and 2). Elk were observed primarily in meadows and
along the main river channel, with the exception of a few single female elk (Figures 3 and 4).
Small bands of bulls were observed higher on hillsides and in thick timber. Classifying elk during
the spring is relatively difficult, especially discerning bulls from cows. In addition, bulls are in
smaller groups in thicker timber, making sightability low in comparison to cow/calf groups. The
observed calf:cow ratio is low but similar to last year’s ratio. Bull:cow ratio is lower than
observed in previous years (Figure 2).

Area Cows Calves Ylg Adult Tot Uncl TotalCalves per
100 cows		Bulls per
100 Cows
Danaher Meadows 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A
Youngs Cr 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A
Basin* 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A
Big Prairie - FlatIron 59 6 2 0 2 0 67 N/A N/A
Burnt Cr & White River Flats 79 4 0 0 0 0 83 N/A N/A
Black Bear - Big Salmon 27 2 0 5 5 13 52 N/A N/A
HD 150 Total 165 12 2 5 7 13 202 7 4
Bunker Cr 0 0 0 3 3 0 3 N/A N/A
Spotted Bear Mtn - L. Twin Cr 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A
Dry Parks 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A
HD 140 Total 1 1 0 3 3 0 3 N/A N/A
Grand Total 166 13 2 8 10 13 202 8 6
 
BuzzH said:
Why?

Easiest job on the planet...do a bit of flying (when that piece of chit helicopter they have runs), count a few elk, run through a population model to come up with some BS numbers. Get BS harvest data from the call center.

Combine all data into a report, then tell Thompson, Vore, Kujala you recommend the same season structure since the 1950's and roll with it.

Repeat for the next 30 years and collect pension...nothing to it.

If you're looking to move up do the following:

Don't rock the boat, reference the 30 year old hunter attitude survey saying opportunity at all costs, and forget about actually practicing biology by managing for bull to cow ratio's, buck to doe ratio's or actual carrying capacity. Don't EVER recommend a shorter season...ever. Take your marching orders from above, like a good minion...make sure to again forget practicing biology, that's a quick way to get fired.

Make sure to support anything that kills more big-game ie: shoulder seasons, season extensions, etc.

Take advanced "how to bullchit the public", "getting the most from fuzzy statistics", and "maintaining the status-quo" training courses.

You'll be a Supervisor before you know it.
Click to expand...
 
This could all be solved by eliminating wolf hunting entirely- even the token two that are allowed now, have hunters kill more elk, and keep building more homes on the winter range.
You can’t have low bull to cow ratios when you eliminate the bulls and the cows.
 
Speaking of good elk management.. FWP called me two weeks ago for elk harvest survey. Seemed a little late even for them.
 
What they did you big game populations on mostly public lands they are working towards on the rest of the state. Wait until they get the Elk populations down to 90,000 head. There will always be large landowners that won't allow mass slaughter, but others will. After the legislation this year you're going to see up to 3 cow tags per landowner buddy given out. They will have most all public lands East of the Divide void of Elk by the time it's over.
 
We work in Yellowstone from April 15 through October most years, and it's unbelievable the total lack of elk in the park now. Pretty damned disgusting! You see throngs of people salivating to see a wolf, and even have had some tell us breathlessly about an elk calf standing in the river with wolves about to get it, and hurry if we wanted to watch! We got to hunt that Northern/Gardiner herd in the 80's and early 90's. It was so cool. We never hunted "The line". We always hunted North a couple of miles, but I'll never forget seeing groups of bulls feeding in openings just like God intended, as if they had no knowledge of human pressure. They were great times. I miss them. I'll never see them again in the mountains. It's why I've pretty much stopped hunting them, and it makes me sad.
 
Fascinating reading about MT game management, a state i hope to hunt this fall. Great to have some real context before seeing the area first hand.
 
sra61 said:
I'll never forget seeing groups of bulls feeding in openings just like God intended, as if they had no knowledge of human pressure. They were great times. I miss them. I'll never see them again in the mountains.
Click to expand...

but God didn't intend for them to get eaten by wolves...?
 
Man reading this stuff is making me depressed to be young, getting into western hunting and having the mountains call to me.

Sad how it's all going to hell.
 
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