Wyoming Elk, Feed them or Not

Here is my argument always on this topic…. The refuge and feed area is huge. If they were mindful about the feeding they could spread the elk across a large area and decrease the issue.

Furthermore there is evidence that Humic acid destroys the prion in the soil. So a great experiment would be to create management plan on the feed areas that would intentionally increase Humic acid and see if they could infect significantly decrease the prion on the landscape and this decrease the infection.

One thing is for certain without feeding them many will likely die, so do we want a large percent to starve and cause issues on private land or would we rather feed and possibly see 10% infection?

I vote for the later with targeted efforts to scattered the feeding and have dispersed feeding occur…
 
Here is my opinion on feedgrounds... Feeding elk is an archaic practice that was started 100+ years ago as a simple solution to a perceived problem and has never been replaced, largely because of political and public opposition. They are disease cesspools for brucellosis, tuberculosis and hoof rot, and they are about to become the epicenter of the grand "CWD experiment". They maintain elk populations that are far beyond what should be present on the landscape and they compete with and displace mule deer and bighorn sheep, two species I happen to have great appreciation for.

You can kill three elk in Wyoming and there are more than enough to go around. If we have to knock them back to some sustainable level so that they can be weaned off of feeding, I am all for it. I grew up in western Wyoming and have spent my entire life in and around all 22 feedgrounds. I have grown to truly loathe them. There is nothing at all natural or wild about them. They are glorified livestock operations and completely remove any sense of nobility from the elk here.

I doubt anything will ever change though, the political pressure, especially from the livestock industry, is too strong here to ever consider any alternative. And, there seems to be a segment of the hunting public that just couldn't live with themselves if they can't drive to a feedgound in November and punch their tag over the hood of their truck while 300 elk stand at the gates of the hay shed.
 
Never met Appaloosa but from reading his thoughts I have respect. He makes some solid points that are hard to argue with. But My feelings on feed ground differ. Basically boils down to “ain’t broke, don’t fix”. Have heard of the impending doom disease factory for some time but western Wyo keeps pumping out elk. Agree they are far from natural but so are elk laying in a hay field or feeding on rancher haystacks. I have never hunted around the feed grounds even on my type 6 tags but I hear of those that do. I have benefited from the feedgrounds as ear tagged elk I and friends have taken in September or October were captured on feedgrounds in prior years.

I have no hard evidence of this last thought it’s just something I have wondered. Western Wyo does not have the same problem that say MT has or central Wyo has of private land harboring elk. I wonder if this is due to the feedgrounds? If the elk never have a reason to head to private land they won’t. Most of the landowners around where I hunt either let hunters in their land heavily for cows or lease some of it. As the landowner profile around here changes to more nonresidents and less likely to be tolerant of other hunters could we see an increase in elk heading to private particularly if the feedgrounds go away? Something I wonder about.
 
appaloosa said:
Here is my opinion on feedgrounds... Feeding elk is an archaic practice that was started 100+ years ago as a simple solution to a perceived problem and has never been replaced, largely because of political and public opposition. They are disease cesspools for brucellosis, tuberculosis and hoof rot, and they are about to become the epicenter of the grand "CWD experiment". They maintain elk populations that are far beyond what should be present on the landscape and they compete with and displace mule deer and bighorn sheep, two species I happen to have great appreciation for.

You can kill three elk in Wyoming and there are more than enough to go around. If we have to knock them back to some sustainable level so that they can be weaned off of feeding, I am all for it. I grew up in western Wyoming and have spent my entire life in and around all 22 feedgrounds. I have grown to truly loathe them. There is nothing at all natural or wild about them. They are glorified livestock operations and completely remove any sense of nobility from the elk here.

I doubt anything will ever change though, the political pressure, especially from the livestock industry, is too strong here to ever consider any alternative. And, there seems to be a segment of the hunting public that just couldn't live with themselves if they can't drive to a feedgound in November and punch their tag over the hood of their truck while 300 elk stand at the gates of the hay shed.
Click to expand...
Appaloosa,



Hmm, have you owned horses of this breed ?



I have had two, one young gelding long ago of original genetic stock. Mustang-y in build. Narrow chested, kinda skinny in frame, with decent withers, that help a saddle sit well on mountain trails. He was tough as nails. Used to ride him with a vintage buckaroo bronc saddle.



Now mostly days gone by,,,that was half century ago.



I bought another “Appy” gelding about 18 years ago. Actually he was a “Quarter-Appy” The improved version. His color was pure Appy, but his conformation was pure ¼ horse, round as barrel, with to no withers. Really had to keep that cinch extra right or the saddle rolled too easy.



I only bought that horse for his fine disposition not conformation. I do not like the “improved version”



What we have done with our wildlife and wild lands is create “Improved versions”



I used to live in Wyoming, in the heart of “feedlot land”. Might as well have been raising pigs.


I have just been looking at elk populations, for Wyoming and Utah. Utah's objective is 68,000 Elk, they have 81,000 during a once in a 1,200 year record drought.

Numbers have to go somewhere and the Utah deer population is down,,,about the same percentage as elk are up,,,,and the state is having some critical over grazing damage, exampled well by the fact that "Pando" the 14,000 year old aspen clone is dying, the oldest living thing and the planet.

I have been to Pando. I used to hunt elk in Utah and Wyoming when I lived there,,,not far from many of the 22 elk feeding grounds.

Back then CWD was looming in Wyoming and during the winter elk were being tested at some of those feeding grounds for CWD, which was found. Elk were being run though shoots, marked, samples taken, ,,,samples went to Cheyenne,,,,killed the infected ones I guess? Testing was pretty primitive back then. Was like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dam trying to keep the water back.



I used to be able to take a map showing CWD in Wyoming, and another with wolf locations and they were completely opposite. That time has passed, mostly I believe from overcrowded feed lot’s.

Looking at the Wyoming elk numbers as I did just now, I keep seeing 30% to 40 % over objective in many areas and I get this sinking feeling in my hunter and biologist's stomach.

The "elk stock market " is being rigged,,,,like let's have a "Walmart elk program" , tremendous production at the cost to the entire system as a whole.



I can see that so many fish and game biologists have just become part of that “rigged over-elk-ed system”. State fish and game departments just love to brag about how high their elk populations are, even if they have to artificially feed them to maintain these numbers which now exceed what that land can really carry.



Welfare elk.



The anti-wolfers keep pounding their point by talking about that surplus kill of 19 elk one night by wolves. They don’t say that happened at feed lot where the elk were crowed and had limited movement.



I too loath the feedlots and this entire rigged system.

There is that sinking feeling again.



The biologists who worked at the RMEF have mostly been fired or quit. The new man in charge of the RMEF used to promote NASCAR and Rodeo events, A whole new crop of elk hunters see elk as a "crop" which are just fed during the winter,,,in large herds just waiting for CWD. Most elk hunters would care not if they shot an elk fed all winter with alfalfa.



They are only on step away from a “Texas style canned hunt



In Utah, 13,000 too many elk, equals about 40,000 less deer. Lot's of deer hunters are victims of a rigged pro elk system.

Sometimes I don't get that sinking feeling in my stomach, instead I get real real mad.



My goal has been to live out my last years where I can hunt original elk, ones that have always been there, no transplanted , ones that are not part of a rigged system, where they have sufficient public land to winter on and are not turned into disease prone moochers and do not exist in abundance at the expense of other wildlife.

I was really hard finding such a place. They are as rare as an original buckaroo saddle.



Mustangs Rule
 
mulecreek said:
Never met Appaloosa but from reading his thoughts I have respect. He makes some solid points that are hard to argue with. But My feelings on feed ground differ. Basically boils down to “ain’t broke, don’t fix”. Have heard of the impending doom disease factory for some time but western Wyo keeps pumping out elk. Agree they are far from natural but so are elk laying in a hay field or feeding on rancher haystacks. I have never hunted around the feed grounds even on my type 6 tags but I hear of those that do. I have benefited from the feedgrounds as ear tagged elk I and friends have taken in September or October were captured on feedgrounds in prior years.

I have no hard evidence of this last thought it’s just something I have wondered. Western Wyo does not have the same problem that say MT has or central Wyo has of private land harboring elk. I wonder if this is due to the feedgrounds? If the elk never have a reason to head to private land they won’t. Most of the landowners around where I hunt either let hunters in their land heavily for cows or lease some of it. As the landowner profile around here changes to more nonresidents and less likely to be tolerant of other hunters could we see an increase in elk heading to private particularly if the feedgrounds go away? Something I wonder about.
Click to expand...
With all due respect to a fellow elk hunter. Western Wyoming does keep pumping out elk only because of an artificial system

As a natural system in integrity, in balance with resources, it is broken most so in the NE where most of the feed lots are. It is like an injured race horse running on injected steroids.

As far as denying the "impeding doom disease factory", here is my cowboy boots on the ground personal experince.

I lived in both SE and NW Wyoming. When I first lived,in SE Wyoming nobody ever heard of CWD, but it was there then. Now with deer, some areas have a 40 % CWD rate of infection and this area is not loaded witf feedlots

Last thought, the last time I hunted Utah I looked at an unbroken herd of about 1200 elk on a private ranch. Having a herd that large is also an example of a broken elk system. Predators would prevent that, breaking them up into smaller more disease resitant groups. And just a 100 miles to the east are the Lal Sal Mountains, Utah's new capitol for CWD
 
Feeding elk in Wyoming has always been an interesting practice to me. Feed and vaccinate them in the winter to keep the herds robust and minimize winter kill, then have a ~2 month general season in the surrounding units (with many rifle seasons starting end of September!) to keep elk numbers in check. You could also draw a 2nd type 6 tag in those same units. Then, if you don't fill your tag, you can apply to hunt the National Elk Refuge for another week. It worked well for me, however. I killed my first elk on the NER and my second one only a couple miles away.

The whole thing seems a bit archaic to me and, admittedly, it felt odd taking an elk that was likely fed by humans at some point. I'm not really sure what the policy answer should be, but I think I'd like to see them phased out somehow.
 
JLS said:
It’s not always black and white. What if winter range has been severely compromised by agriculture and/or development? Migration corridors lost?
Click to expand...
I try to avoid getting involved with the hypothetical world as it morphs in to something else with every solution offered. Wild animals live by their wits. Farm animals get fed and managed. Doesn't get much more black and white than that.

What happened to the dinosaurs?
 
nrpate05 said:
Feeding elk in Wyoming has always been an interesting practice to me. Feed and vaccinate them in the winter to keep the herds robust and minimize winter kill, then have a ~2 month general season in the surrounding units (with many rifle seasons starting end of September!) to keep elk numbers in check. You could also draw a 2nd type 6 tag in those same units. Then, if you don't fill your tag, you can apply to hunt the National Elk Refuge for another week. It worked well for me, however. I killed my first elk on the NER and my second one only a couple miles away.

The whole thing seems a bit archaic to me and, admittedly, it felt odd taking an elk that was likely fed by humans at some point. I'm not really sure what the policy answer should be, but I think I'd like to see them phased out somehow.
Click to expand...
They actually vaccinate elk at these feed grounds?
 
We had 1rancher on the Monroe unit here in Utah take out 100 does the last couple of years. After the rut. And he was just 1.

Before we go to far into "natural", the reality is cows pay, elk don't.

Jackson Hole metroplex is an obvious corridor blocker.

Which means ranchers will be feeding them if the lots don't.

And, ain't no money in feeding elk. Meaning the elk get gunned down.


It's a bad choice vs worse choice issue.

Obviously I'm only speaking about the Jackson refuge, I can't speak to all the others.

We don't have many, or grand scale feeding in Utah.

And our ranchers ain't real pleased about that, and fairly, with good reason.
 
Jack Ryan said:
I try to avoid getting involved with the hypothetical world as it morphs in to something else with every solution offered. Wild animals live by their wits. Farm animals get fed and managed. Doesn't get much more black and white than that.

What happened to the dinosaurs?
Click to expand...
It’s not hypothetical. There are elk herds that have completely lost both.
 
The only time I'm in alignment with the vegetarian is when it comes to cattle. "Kill the cattle, save the wildlife" This issue is gone without cattle.
 
Probably not worth the time, but since the feedground people worked for me for several years...
The elk feedground in Jackson Hole was created after elk began starving, dropping dead in people's yards, and eating everything they could reach. People complained to their Congress people. Once it was created, every time there was a problem, usually because cattle and sheep ranchers bitched or hunters did not like seeing dead elk, another feedground was created. It's interesting that this did not slop over into the rest of Wyoming, only NW Wyoming, probably because elk numbers were pretty much depleted in other parts of Wyoming at the time. Many of the feedgrounds are only there to placate ranchers and keep elk from camping on their pastures or in their haystacks. Wyoming's damage law compensates landowners, and much time is spent running elk with snowmobiles and building board fences around haystacks to keep elk out of hay.
The hunting season can be long because these elk go to the high country, access is difficult, and in a season that is early, before snowfall, hunter success is low.
The concern over brucellosis, which causes abortion of fetuses, and the vaccinations are only to protect cattle. Ironically, elk were undoubtedly infected when cattle were grazed in Yellowstone after it became a national park, before cattle were run out of the place.
As for chronic wasting disease, nothing is being done to control it, its locations are simply verified by testing. Both Colorado and Wisconsin tried to eradicate it by slaughtering deer, but as soon as deer numbers dropped to a low point, both hunters and landowners forced them to stop. While some stilll believe it came from a mutation in a captive deer herd north of Fort Collins, CO, retired game wardens in WY told me they had seen animals with similar characteristics to those with chronic wasting disease in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s. They simply shot them to put them out of their misery. Wyoming still tells people to get rid of an animal testing positive for chronic wasting disease despite any evidence the disease can be transmitted to humans. This is because the lawyers of the Centers for Disease Control have told the scientists there to cover their butts despite any evidence eating infected game animals is a problem, and they continue to parrot the idea that it might be a problem.
It is interesting that elk herds in SE and NE WY are also above their population objectives, despite the lack of feedgrounds. And those savage wolves that were going to decimate elk herds apparently have not done their job, nor have the elk hunters. A U of WY study showed the real culprits eating elk calves and reducing calf:cow ratios were bears, both black and grizzly. They hunt them down on calving grounds like bird dogs. Elk in the high country, because of high elk numbers, weren't as healthy nor had as many calves as elk near the hay fields and pastures at lower elevations. Yet the whining is still about wolves.
Hunters aren't getting any younger, including me. I got my butt whacked in the 1980s for telling an outdoor reporter hunters were "overweight, out of shape, over-equipped, and under-skilled". It was true then and is even more true now. The invention and use of four wheelers has not improved elk hunting skills, and has greatly increased elk movements to inaccessible private lands where they aren't bothered. While hunters now have the best weapons, ammunition, clothing, boots, camping gear, vehicles, GPS, maps, horse equipment, and packs, yet statewide hunter success in WY has not got over about 45 per cent. Elk are a lot more adaptable then hunters.
 
DrH said:
As for chronic wasting disease, nothing is being done to control it, its locations are simply verified by testing.
Click to expand...
I'm glad to hear someone else mention the semantics involved in CWD.

"Control CWD"
"Fight CWD"
"Stop CWD"
Testing doesn't do any of those things but it does update distribution maps.
 
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