Wyo elk or antelope partner

[Muley_Stalker]

Yes Randy, but in the case of Jim. He's almost offering a guide service which could be invaluable to a new elk hunter.

I'm sure there's lots of guys saving points who have never elk hunted. They may have a lot of points not by choice, but because they're unsure of trying the hunt without help.

 

[Big Fin]

Yes Randy, but in the case of Jim. He's almost offering a guide service which could be invaluable to a new elk hunter.

I'm sure there's lots of guys saving points who have never elk hunted. They may have a lot of points not by choice, but because they're unsure of trying the hunt without help.

Not denying any of that. My point is that this type of solicitation is bound to spawn some heated comments. I doubt anyone involved with the western hunting application process would be surprised by the reaction it might cause.

 

[jimss]

Big Fin, Thanks for your post! I agree completely!

 

[Muley_Stalker]

Yes, I can see that now Randy, but in Jim's case it seems like a good deal for all involved directly.

 

[Kevin W]

Seems like a real risk to me.

Yes, I can see that now Randy, but in Jim's case it seems like a good deal for all involved directly.

Seems like a real risk to me. With friends or family you have a history and trust, with a complete stranger you give him your points to get a tag you could have drawn with less points and are bound to a strangers abilities. I like to hit the casino every now and then but given if I invested 8 years to acquire 8 preference points that's a gamble I wouldn't take.

 

[Muley_Stalker]

Is it better for someone new to elk hunting to try to do it on their own? More points might be a better trophy unit, but that won't help if you don't know how to hunt for elk.

I can hunt my unit with no points, and get an elk. The odds of someone new doing it go way up. Now, I bet I can take a new hunter, and get him an elk. Wouldn't that be better than having him hunt on his own in a high point unit?

Sometimes you have to take a chance, and trust someone to do as they say. I have a gut feeling Jim can do what he says.

 

[schmalts]

What they really should do in WY is scrap the bonus point system completely. That goes for most states. Not going to happen because $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[treedagain]

schmaltz on 2nd thought....I do agree that Wyoming should scrap the points program now that I used my max points in the last 2 years I would love to have a snowballs chance of drawing another tag.

 

[Big Fin]

schmaltz on 2nd thought....I do agree that Wyoming should scrap the points program now that I used my max points in the last 2 years I would love to have a snowballs chance of drawing another tag.

Agreed, for all states. I have 200+ points in different states for different species. My son has 225+ points. I would gladly toss them all and write off the investment made in obtaining those points, if all states would junk their point systems. I'm going to draw some really good tags and so will my son, thanks to participating in these point schemes. But, to me, these point systems have become a joke; albeit not a joke to agencies that are making a ton of dough in selling points.

 

[Brittany Chukarman]

In Oregon guys are pimping out their points for cash to do a party app in the draw. Sleazy but ODFW allows it.

 

[BuzzH]

My question to Buzz is why does this matter to you? Your a resident and what he does has no effect on you. It seems as if your a little jealous of this situation. Kinda like the little kid that would rat out the kid next to him that got an extra dessert. I dont mean this to be personal but you seem to get involved in alot of issues that you have no real stake in. Always something you think another hunter should not be able to do because you cannot. From the looks of it you do OK... as a hunter why does this bother you? I am a non resident and personally on the fence. They are free to share their points however the law dictates. Your a resident who has no stake in the matter. Let the people who it effects decide what should be done

treedagain,

I'll answer all your questions then explain why I'm going to make recommendations to change the way the point averaging is done.

First of all, in case you weren't aware, the Wildlife in Wyoming is held in trust for the citizens of the State of Wyoming. The only reason that NR's are allowed to hunt WY's wildlife is because the States citizens are gracious enough to allow guys like you to do so. The same way that I'm allowed to apply and hunt for wildlife in your home State of Utah or the 49 other states that I'm a NR in. The Residents of those states are not required to even allow me any opportunity at THEIR wildlife and I'm grateful for any opportunity those states are willing to give me.

That alone should answer most of your questions, that I absolutely have a "stake in the matter" but I'll go further.

The reason that I care about this is because as a Resident, I have the ability to decide how my wildlife is managed...with that comes all things related to the hunting of that Wildlife and associated things like point systems, tag distributions, etc. Whether that is a NR point system or Resident point system is immaterial. It simply doesn't matter as by virtue of my Residency, it becomes my issue.

If you think this has anything to do with jealousy you would be 100% wrong. I've been much more than fortunate when it comes to hunting, in hours spent, drawing tags, success, and anything else that has to do with the sport.

Further, when I look at any kind of legislation or regulation in Wyoming, or any other State, I don't do so with my own self interest in mind. If that were the case, I wouldn't have sent letters, emails, etc. to Montana Legislators requesting that they withdraw the NR Native Hunting licenses that I benefitted from (paying $64 for a deer A tag, and $80 for an elk tag). In fact, 2 legislators thought I was off my rocker as they simply couldn't get their minds around why I would oppose something that benefitted me as a Native of Montana. I did so because it DID not benefit the MTFWP budget or the Wildlife of Montana.

When I examine regulations. rules, legislation, etc. I look at each piece roughly in this order:

1. Does the reg. leg. or rule do what's in the best interest of wildlife?
2. Do those things benefit the Department and residents?
3. Do those things benefit the NR DIY hunters?
4. Do those things benefit private enterprises?
5. Do those things benefit land owners?
6. Do those things benefit outfitters?

Finally, does the reg. legislation or rule do or is it doing what its intended to do?

In this case I have interest because IMO, this point averaging is bastardizing the intent of why the point system was implemented to start with.

The intent, that I heard in testimony by mainly the outfitters, was that there needed to be a "fairness" in how tags were distributed to NR hunters. There was essentially no discussion regarding point averaging, none. The only argument given was for INDIVIDUAL hunters having a better chance to draw for their years of applying. In other words, to distribute tags in a more "equitable" and fair way to those individuals who were unlucky in the draw. Heard the same thing in arguments for a Resident point system.

The point averaging was only given consideration because WY also allows party applications. The ramifications of NR point averaging was not even discussed, mainly because NR's did not show up to ask such questions.

However, this was much different several years ago with a Resident Point system was introduced via legislation. I fought that bill and ultimately it died...and one of the main reasons was because of the chit-storm that point averaging would cause.

I feel that the intent, and spirit, of the preference system in Wyoming for NR deer, elk and pronghorn is not being met. There are guys like jims that are putting the screws to other NR's that are waiting their rightful turn. I will argue all day long, that the intent was to help the individual hunter, not a party of hunters. The intent wasn't to allow a loophole where the unscrupulous jump over others for their own self-interest.

So, since I have much more influence to implement change, I'm looking out for the interest of ALL NR hunters, and not those that are looking for a way to kick other NR's to the curb by gaming the system.

Also, since I feel that a Resident Point system may be on the not so distant horizon, I like to stay in front of the issues and correcting the problems with the NR system now, will only make getting the Resident point system right from the start easier (if one is implemented).

The point averaging within the preference point system is doing the exact opposite of the intent...to create a more fair way of distributing tags to the individual NR hunter. For those reasons, I will be doing what I can to correct this problem.

 

[Kevin W]

Ummmmmm this is On your Own Adventures isn't it?

Is it better for someone new to elk hunting to try to do it on their own?

Ummmmmm this is On your Own Adventures isn't it? Just sayin!!!!!!!!

 

[treedagain]

Buzz that was quite a response.....I will sleep better knowing you speak for all hunters and willing to sacrifice for the benefit of our states fish and game agency's. Where were you when Utah sold out its wildlife to SFW/MDF? or when the CWMU program put a price tag every deer, elk, moose, antelope that even puts a hoof on private ground and in a lot of cases public? that decreased access instead of Improve opportunity? have you fired off any letters in response to the recent seemingly illegal acts of the UDWR, wildlife board, and various other state agency's and private for profit groups that hide behind a non profit shield and the awarding of the EXPO contract. I would think a guy with your integrity and willingness to get involved would be more worried with the MILLIONS of dollars and 200 plus tags that are taken out of the pool of tags and sold to the highest bidder, that to me is a far bigger issue than a guy, a normal blue collar guy sharing knowledge and on the ground help for a chance to cut a few years off his wait for a tag,,,,,call me crazy but that is small in comparison.

I am glad that Wyoming found it in their hearts to allow another AMERICAN CITIZEN to bear arms in your state and harvest one of there game animals....is your next project to push for no NR hunters? or restrict automobiles from using your roads or even restrict your airspace for only Wyoming residents.

in good faith Buzz you seem like a decent guy and hunter that cares about the animals we all love to hunt along with their pursuit.

 

[jimss]

My head is spinning reading 3 post up!

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz that was quite a response.....I will sleep better knowing you speak for all hunters and willing to sacrifice for the benefit of our states fish and game agency's. Where were you when Utah sold out its wildlife to SFW/MDF? or when the CWMU program put a price tag every deer, elk, moose, antelope that even puts a hoof on private ground and in a lot of cases public? that decreased access instead of Improve opportunity? have you fired off any letters in response to the recent seemingly illegal acts of the UDWR, wildlife board, and various other state agency's and private for profit groups that hide behind a non profit shield and the awarding of the EXPO contract. I would think a guy with your integrity and willingness to get involved would be more worried with the MILLIONS of dollars and 200 plus tags that are taken out of the pool of tags and sold to the highest bidder, that to me is a far bigger issue than a guy, a normal blue collar guy sharing knowledge and on the ground help for a chance to cut a few years off his wait for a tag,,,,,call me crazy but that is small in comparison.

I am glad that Wyoming found it in their hearts to allow another AMERICAN CITIZEN to bear arms in your state and harvest one of there game animals....is your next project to push for no NR hunters? or restrict automobiles from using your roads or even restrict your airspace for only Wyoming residents.

in good faith Buzz you seem like a decent guy and hunter that cares about the animals we all love to hunt along with their pursuit.

You asked the question...remember?

The answer to your next question, yes, I have called, written, and been involved with the 200 tags, along with the other 400 or so ripped from NR's. But like I already pointed out, as a NR, I don't have much pull in Utah regarding how your state allocates the wildlife resources held in trust for the citizens of Utah.

Its your legislature, your GF agency, and your Residents that are allowing this to happen to YOUR wildlife.

I'm essentially at the mercy of how involved Residents want to get in regard to the swindling of their resources in Utah...the same as you are as a NR to Wyoming.

I dont vote for your Governor, dont vote for your legislature, etc...so my involvement is pretty well limited to writing letters, making phone calls, etc. I cant hold your State accountable for squandering your resources.

But, I will be meeting with the Governor of Wyoming this coming week, the WYGF, the WYBHA board, etc. Going to be a busy few months dealing with a whole host of issues with a bunch of agencies, legislators, ngo's etc.

Keep up the good fight in Utah.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

treedagain,

In this case I have interest because IMO, this point averaging is bastardizing the intent of why the point system was implemented to start with.

***Fair enough, as all of us have an opinion. However, since you state that the Wyoming G&F put the system into effect with no input as to what might happen, why not give them haydes instead of NRs that are just working within the system that we were forced into in 2006?

The intent, that I heard in testimony by mainly the outfitters, was that there needed to be a "fairness" in how tags were distributed to NR hunters. There was essentially no discussion regarding point averaging, none. The only argument given was for INDIVIDUAL hunters having a better chance to draw for their years of applying. In other words, to distribute tags in a more "equitable" and fair way to those individuals who were unlucky in the draw. Heard the same thing in arguments for a Resident point system.

The point averaging was only given consideration because WY also allows party applications. The ramifications of NR point averaging was not even discussed, mainly because NR's did not show up to ask such questions.

***Obviously any time a state allows party applications there has to be something in the law to either allow or disallow certain things when they apply. Maybe It's your fault that this wasn't brought up and taken care of BEFORE the system was put into effect since you're so adamant against averaging! Why didn't you fight it then BEFORE it was passed if it's so important to you?

I feel that the intent, and spirit, of the preference system in Wyoming for NR deer, elk and pronghorn is not being met. There are guys like jims that are putting the screws to other NR's that are waiting their rightful turn. I will argue all day long, that the intent was to help the individual hunter, not a party of hunters. The intent wasn't to allow a loophole where the unscrupulous jump over others for their own self-interest.

***Maybe you should throw Fin's name in there along with Jim since he's stated he's used the system more than once to "put the screws to other NRs" and "unscrupulously jump over others for his own self interest"! After all, anyone that uses point averaging does exactly what Fin stated in his post and it doesn't matter whether they are a family member, friend, or stranger since the end result is the same.

So, since I have much more influence to implement change, I'm looking out for the interest of ALL NR hunters, and not those that are looking for a way to kick other NR's to the curb by gaming the system.

***Yea right, just like you looked out for ALL the NRs when you tried to get the 90/10 split on several species tags and the 60%/40% for Regular/Special tags switched to 40%/60% for deer, elk, and antelope. That was really looking out for the average DIY NR guy, LOL!

The point averaging within the preference point system is doing the exact opposite of the intent...to create a more fair way of distributing tags to the individual NR hunter. For those reasons, I will be doing what I can to correct this problem.

***I hope you have as much success on this as you did on those two measures mentioned in the previous paragraph that at one time I believe you stated "were in the bag" because of influence you think you have up in Cheyenne! It's really a shame that as much as you know and do and are in the forefront on wildlife issues that you alienate so many that might help you on some things that are a lot more important than NR point averaging. I guess if this averaging comes up for change the NRs will need to fight it like they did the other items mentioned that were killed.

 

[BuzzH]

My head is spinning reading 3 post up!

That's pretty impressive, considering what orifice your head is typically up...:W:

 

[BuzzH]

***I hope you have as much success on this as you did on those two measures mentioned in the previous paragraph that at one time I believe you stated "were in the bag" because of influence you think you have up in Cheyenne! It's really a shame that as much as you know and do and are in the forefront on wildlife issues that you alienate so many that might help you on some things that are a lot more important than NR point averaging. I guess if this averaging comes up for change the NRs will need to fight it like they did the other items mentioned that were killed.

Good luck with that, its a simple regulation change and not going to be vetted by the Legislature. It will happen without you even knowing it.

 

[Muley_Stalker]

Ummmmmm this is On your Own Adventures isn't it? Just sayin!!!!!!!!

I thought it was Hunt Talk?

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Good luck with that, its a simple regulation change and not going to be vetted by the Legislature. It will happen without you even knowing it.

***Thanks, but I already knew that. Nothing is ever as simple as you might think it will be, regardless of how much influence you and your big ego think you have, LOL! We can petition the Commission just as easy, and probably easier, than we can deal with your politicians and the money NRs put into the G&F system talks!