Wyo elk or antelope partner

[jimss]

I'm looking for someone with 8+ Wyo elk pref pts that is interested in hunting a great limited elk unit in 2016 and is willing to apply with me in a party application. I live fairly close to the unit and will likely spend a lot of time pre-season scouting and archery hunting. If unsuccessful with bow I will continue hunting during the rifle season. I would be willing to pass along all research, scouting, and hunting info...and possibly join you on the hunt.

I have done this in the past with great success. In fact, I helped out a Texas hunter a couple years ago and we both got whopper 6x6 bulls. If you are tired of building pref pts, unsure where to burn your pref pts, or have never hunted elk..this may be a great opportunity!

I am also looking for someone to apply together for Wyo antelope. I hunt a private ranch where there is great potential for 78 to 82+" bucks. I have lots of photos I can share with anyone seriously interested.

Please send me an email if you are interested; [email protected]

 

[BuzzH]

What an asshat...

If anyone has 8 points, I will share information where to apply solo and hunt a better area than you can by splitting your points with this tool...

Which reminds me, I need to work on getting this loophole shut down.

Thanks for the reminder.

 

[jimss]

Wyo elk and antelope

No problem Buzz! Believe it or not I've had a great time sharing hunts with other guys over the years! It's always worked out for everyone.

 

[mixedbag]

Buzz, why would you want to shut down point sharing??I'm just curious to your reasoning.I do see a lot of people offer this same type thing on different sites though.I personally like the way Wy does it with sharing points as compared to Co.It will be helpful for me and my kids to hunt together in better units when we have different points

 

[BuzzH]

mixedbag,

It makes point creep worse and also places a value on points creating an entitlement attitude. Not to mention that there are people like jims that are willing to sell out quality hunting units, their own integrity, and perhaps even "purchase" the use of others points for their own greed.

Not a fan of any of that.

Its really getting out of hand and I'll give you a classic example. I was approached by another hunter in Alpine Wyoming and he asked me if I was "so and so". I told him no, and I thought perhaps he was looking for his outfitter. Turns out he was looking for 2 total strangers that he had partied with on a Region G tag. He went on to say that he was doing everything he could to hunt G every year. He finally got tired of waiting for this application "friends" and said, "No big deal, I got what I wanted, the use of their points"....

That crap doesn't sit well with me, that those using the party application loophole are driving point creep and hunting more often than those that are waiting their turn.

Just look at the points required to draw most any unit now...even starting to see it in lesser pronghorn units, general elk tags, etc.

Time to tap the brakes...

 

[Muley_Stalker]

I didn't think his offer was so bad. He's offering local knowledge to a NR with past success to back it up.

 

[jimss]

The are a number of positive aspects to point averaging which often outweigh the negatives. An applicant with a lot of PPs that parties with others loose all their PPs and start at zero the following year, thus dropping the higher PP total pool down and giving other applicants 2 less applicants to deal with. This would actually decrease point creep in tough to draw units. The other positive thing about the system is that it allows family members and hunting buddies a better chance to hunt together since their points are averaged. Obviously there are bad apples out there that may take advantage of others but in most instances I would think it is a win=win situation for both parties. I've gained lifetime friends over the years through online hunting websites similar to this one.

Buzz, you would likely be a little surprised who has actually used point averaging to draw tags? Possibly the guy that runs this website?

 

[BuzzH]

jims,

There are people that will justify anything as long as its a benefit to them...count yourself in that group.

As per always, its all about you.

BTW, I don't think this would be an issue at all if it was simply a group of friends or a family type deal. But, when people like you solicit complete strangers just to use their points...that's the problem. Also exactly what you describe as a "bad apple"...

 

[putm2sleep]

Lovely, more watch-dogging insight, and approval from the forum monitor.

Buzz - I am with ya, I don't care who does it - point creep is garbage. Loop-holing our systems is garbage too. Same shifty cats who cheat in golf, and on taxes, even if you are an accountant. >>>Bad apples and crafty fellas are the norm these days unfortunately - and encourage this behavior.
Q; do you folks have ways to pay for tags through food stamps and govt assist? Wonder if there is a program out there I can apply to?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Big Fin]

Buzz, you would likely be a little surprised who has actually used point averaging to draw tags? Possibly the guy that runs this website?

Yes Jim, I have been on party apps and we have drawn tags. Sometimes because of my points and sometimes because of others having more points. I have done so with my son. I have done so with friends. I have done so with members of this forum who I have gotten to know and consider friends.

If you think that my applications with family and friends is the same as publicly posting to strangers as you have here and on other hunting forums, you are entitled to equate them as being the same. I would disagree. I suspect most would struggle to equate public solicitations to strangers as being the same as a party app with family and friends.

I had decided not to post on this thread here, or on the many other hunting forums where you have posted the same request, being interested in where these discussions would go. Given you specifically called me out and you seem to equate the times I've been on a party app with the way you are soliciting to strangers here, I decided to respond.

Personally, if this is what you want to do, knock yourself out. It is currently allowed in Wyoming.

Yet, in doing so as you have, it makes the entire process of party apps seem foul to some. Just a fact. I know you are smart enough to understand how this would be perceived by many, yet you did it anyhow. Again, it is currently allowed in Wyoming, so knock yourself out.

When people read your posts on this, you and I both know they are inclined to see this as an abuse of the existing rules for which point averaging has been implemented. As such, don't be surprised if it causes the folks of Wyoming to take action to do, in Wyoming, exactly what your home state of Colorado has done to curb the problem - take away any benefits from party apps.

Your home state does not allow this point averaging. In Colorado, a party app goes in with the lowest point total of any member of the party. I'm not sure how that came to be, but I suspect it was in response to perceived abuse of the system.

When Wyoming does make such a change to party apps, as I would expect them to do (your post here gives the impression of this abuse being common place), it will be a bad deal for the guy who wanted to party app with his child/family member/friend. Just part of what happens when folks feel there is significant abuse of a process and they take action to try stop what they see as abuse.

Trust me, I could do a party app in every state, every year, if I wanted. I get that many requests. I don't do that, unless it is a family or friend. I will probably share some of my points in other states with family and friends with whom I've been planning hunts when schedules allow. I'm not going to post a solicitation of such on multiple hunting forums that asks strangers to share points with me, even when allowed.

What each state allows is up to that state. And whether or not that state decides to change their rules is often a function of how they perceive their rules are being followed in spirit or abused by technicality. To each their own.

Carry on ......

 

[Muley_Stalker]

Oops! It looks like I took the wrong side. Sorry about that. To be honest I always hunt alone, and don't get into all the party points deal. I just take care of myself. I just figured his local knowledge was worth something.

Carry on.

 

[treedagain]

My question to Buzz is why does this matter to you? Your a resident and what he does has no effect on you. It seems as if your a little jealous of this situation. Kinda like the little kid that would rat out the kid next to him that got an extra dessert. I dont mean this to be personal but you seem to get involved in alot of issues that you have no real stake in. Always something you think another hunter should not be able to do because you cannot. From the looks of it you do OK... as a hunter why does this bother you? I am a non resident and personally on the fence. They are free to share their points however the law dictates. Your a resident who has no stake in the matter. Let the people who it effects decide what should be done

 

[treedagain]

Oops! It looks like I took the wrong side. Sorry about that?onest I always hunt alone, and don't get into all the party points deal. I just take care of myself. I just figured his local knowledge was worth something.

Carry on.

Wrong side? You posted your opinion and now retract it because the "cool kids" think different? I also respect big fins opinion and for that part most peoples but it dont change to align myself with anyone. More than likely that is not the case here but it looks rhat way.

 

[Muley_Stalker]

I retracted because I wasn't aware of the whole issue.

I still say his local knowledge is worth something, and some guys with points may feel the same way. I never retracted that.

 

[LopeHunter]

Make it like Colorado where a party application gets the lowest point total of all members in the party.

Heck, I could put grandma in for points each year then use her points on my party application to get me a nicer tag, sooner. Sure, I pay for points she never uses and a tag she never uses but I have money so not a big deal.

Heck, in Utah, granny could turn in her tag and the rest of the party used the tags then she had her points still for the next year. Utah finally ended that abomination.

I foresee a new match maker service: Wyoming Point Mates. Do you enjoy quiet walks in the wilderness? Like returning to camp to a waiting warm meal? A mint on your pillow? Well, you are in luck if you allow me to use your points to get me a better tag then I will have my wife cook for us and put a mint on your pillow. Oh, I might share my scouting and hang around after I fill my tag but, if not, THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES!

 

[Muley_Stalker]

Are you sure you can turn in a tag that is part of a party hunt?

 

[Topgun 30-06]

First off, NRs had no input creating the PP system in Wyoming in 2006 that we are stuck with. It also, as treedagain stated, has no effect on residents whatsoever. IMHO residents should let well enough alone and stay out of of this unless there is a groundswell of NRs asking that the averaging system be changed. I sure haven't heard anything and have really only seen BuzzH and a couple others making a big deal out of it the last couple years when it has come up on a couple websites. I do agree with Randy that it may make the system look bad in putting a request out on open forums like Jims did. However, when the G&F created the system and did the PP averaging this way for a party they full well knew what could and would be done and was why they went with it. IMHO I doubt seriously that there are a lot of people doing what we're talking about, but regardless of whether it's done with friends and family or a complete stranger the results are the same! As Jim mentioned and I totally agree with, the negative aspect being mentioned is probably outweighed by the fact that the party that draws then goes to 0 PPs the following year and frees tags up until they have enough PPs to apply again somewhere. Anyway, saying it affects point creep can be debated either way and because of the way the odds reporting system is set up there is no way that it can be proved or disproved. In closing, I would ask that all Wyoming residents let this one alone since it has no effect on them and NRs haven't asked for any change in their averaging system.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Are you sure you can turn in a tag that is part of a party hunt?

Utah used to allow that, but as he stated, it was changed and darn well should have never been allowed in the first place. In Wyoming there is no turning back a tag or getting a refund unless you die or are unable to hunt and that has to be notarized by Doctors reports and even then it's like pulling teeth to get a refund.

 

[jimss]

I guess I'm a little confused in regard to comments above. "People like you solicit complete strangers just to use their points." Over the years I've helped quite a few hunters figure out strategies for drawing tags and helped them on their successful hunts. We shared incredible experiences and I helped them locate game, field judge, and figure out hunting strategies in country they had no idea where to begin. We may have been strangers going into the hunt but left being lifetime friends! They also had a freezer full of meat, trophy on their wall, and photos of incredible country from their experience. I really don't see how this is any different than someone point averaging with a buddy to draw the same tags or finding someone on this website to share a hunt?

How exactly is my post abusing the existing rules for which point averaging has been implemented? I don't believe what I'm doing is any different than anyone else point averaging with a friend? Plain and simple I'm willing to share a great experience with other hunters around the country that otherwise may be frustrated trying to figure out strategies for drawing decent tags. I offer my knowledge and experience from areas I know well with others..

 

[Big Fin]

Personally, I have no problem with people doing party apps. A case can be made that party apps do not have a big impact on the total process from a micro view, rather impacts only the macro view. If a guy with a lot of points applies with a guy at a much lower point level, someone is hurt by the low-point guy jumping up and someone benefits from the high-point guy dropping down. Probably a net-net in the big picture. Yet, if you are at a lower point level and some guy jumps ahead of you, your macro view is that you got screwed. If you are the guy at a mid to high point level and some guy drops down to party app with a low-point person, your macro view is that it helped you.

That said, I don't think it is a surprise that people have a negative response to public solicitations like Jim posted. He's not breaking any laws. Yet, you can look to other states and see changes they have made when they feel party apps are being abused. And given how high demand western tags are, people are going to have strong opinions about it. None of that comes as a surprise to me.

Besides what I mentioned in CO, look at what Utah did when people thought the party app process was being abused. They changed the rules about turning tags in and retaining your points. Whether correct or not, it is easy to see WY folks looking at this kind of public solicitation and feeling their system is not being used as they think was intended, and as a result, doing what CO and UT did to change their system.

Unlike CO and UT, WY does not allow you to turn your tag back in and get your points restored, so some would say that cuts down on the greatest concern.

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me what any state does; it's their right to do as they please. As a non-resident, I can apply elsewhere if I don't like what rules a state has. If Wyoming changes this, I understand. If it stays the same, I understand.