'Would Hunting Grizzlies Reduce Conflict with Humans?' -MeatEater article by Pat Durkin

[daltrix99]

Would Hunting Grizzlies Reduce Conflict with Humans?

Whether you’re hunting whitetails, trapping wolves, or simply potting blackbirds to protect your strawberry patch, you notice when your prey changes its behaviors and movements to avoid death or capture. Can hunting also “scare grizzlies straight,” making the bears less likely to cause conflicts...

www.themeateater.com

No smoking gun here, and the article (IMO) does a nice, measured job of evaluating the unknowns. A handful of experts chime in, some more skeptical than others.

I don't have the experience or data these fellas (or most of you) have to offer a strong opinion on how bears would be affected by hunting, but I do have a degree in wildlife bio that lends me to thinking it will take a significant amount of time, maybe even multiple Grizzly generations, to noticeably impact behavior and conflict. That being said, I am 100% in favor of a well managed Grizzly hunt in MT, WY, and ID.

Final note, science aside, I know an older gentleman in NW Montana who used to guide Grizzly hunts way way back in the day, and his stories are among the best I've ever heard. Not sure if I'd ever be interested in a tag, but it would be a great backcountry adventure in Montana for those who sought it out.

 

[Jcs271]

While it is purely anecdotal, my personal observations (and those of outdoorsmen that I know and trust) is that wolf behavior in the 10yrs we have been hunting them has evolved significantly. From being quite bold to now literally running at the first indication of a threat. How that would translate to grizzlies is certainly open to debate but I would argue that it would take MUCH longer, if ever, for them to begin perceiving humans as any more of a threat than they currently do. Primarily because of the fact that so few would actually be shot at and also because of their solitary lifestyle. Unlike a wolf pack, there is usually not another bear around to learn of the danger when one is killed by a hunter.

P.S. I firmly believe that we will get state management and hunting in the not to distant future.

Well I just read the article. Apparently I am smarter than I thought because a bunch of PHD's in the article seem to agree with me.

 

[ida homer]

JCS spot on.

Wolves are incredibly spooky around this country now, it's a true trophy to tag one, I haven't even really gotten close. They bolt immediately, just like a black bear.
Black bears have been getting their asses shot at for 100 years and are more scared than deer when they wind you.

As mentioned above, it will take longer, maybe 20 years. Because if the states do gain management it will be 10-20 tags, if we're lucky.
But they'll learn. Seems like the bears in AK don't get into trouble as much.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Not sure if it would change the behavior of the whole population but it would certainly have an effect on the one that gets killed. Kind of like the death penalty. Don't know if it deters others but it certainly stopped at least one.

 

[Bambistew]

IMO, hunting bears will have little effect on their behavior. Wolves and black bears do not stand their ground or defend their space. People get mauled because they surprise bears, almost every time, not because bears come looking for them. Sure there are the odd balls that are predatory, but its not common. Virtually every bear attack happens because someone surprised a bear. How does hunting them make that interaction change?

I also think the bears in the L48 are just more ornery, for what ever reason. Maybe less available food, so they are more confrontational? The bears further north in AK are more aggressive than the bears closer to the coast. Far less food, and much longer winters up north.

I've only seen a couple grizz in MT, but would be curious about others who have seen them after they saw or smelled you. Did they go the other way? Up here they usually do, but sometimes they will just sit and watch as well, depends on the situation.

 

[Jape]

Really interesting article. Never thought about the potential difference between wolves and bears based on their social structures.

Conclusion: best way to find out is allow hunting and collect data. Imagine that.

 

[millerpaul17]

IMO, hunting bears will have little effect on their behavior. Wolves and black bears do not stand their ground or defend their space. People get mauled because they surprise bears, almost every time, not because bears come looking for them. Sure there are the odd balls that are predatory, but its not common. Virtually every bear attack happens because someone surprised a bear. How does hunting them make that interaction change?

I also think the bears in the L48 are just more ornery, for what ever reason. Maybe less available food, so they are more confrontational? The bears further north in AK are more aggressive than the bears closer to the coast. Far less food, and much longer winters up north.

I've only seen a couple grizz in MT, but would be curious about others who have seen them after they saw or smelled you. Did they go the other way? Up here they usually do, but sometimes they will just sit and watch as well, depends on the situation.

Great Article. I do Believe it will take a lot of hunting to get them "afraid" of humans again as a whole.

I have seen it both ways. I've come up on grizzlies and they take one glance at us and run like hell. I have also come up on grizzlies and they turn and looked at us and went right back to what they were doing not giving a care in the world about us.
In my experience most grizzly see us riding our horses or hiking and just kind of move out of the way into cover and resume back to whatever it is they were doing when we move along. That's just what ive seen

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Given how the WY hunt was supposed to be structured I can't imagine there will be an effect.

How spooky are ungulates in units where only 1 or 2 animals in the entire unit are killed a year.

 

[daltrix99]

Given how the WY hunt was supposed to be structured I can't imagine there will be an effect.

How spooky are ungulates in units where only 1 or 2 animals in the entire unit are killed a year.

This is a very important point that I think is lost among many hunters who think grizzly hunting is a smoking gun solution. I’m still in favor of the tags, but we have to remember how minimal it will be for some time.

 

[daltrix99]

IMO, hunting bears will have little effect on their behavior. Wolves and black bears do not stand their ground or defend their space. People get mauled because they surprise bears, almost every time, not because bears come looking for them. Sure there are the odd balls that are predatory, but its not common. Virtually every bear attack happens because someone surprised a bear. How does hunting them make that interaction change?

I also think the bears in the L48 are just more ornery, for what ever reason. Maybe less available food, so they are more confrontational? The bears further north in AK are more aggressive than the bears closer to the coast. Far less food, and much longer winters up north.

I've only seen a couple grizz in MT, but would be curious about others who have seen them after they saw or smelled you. Did they go the other way? Up here they usually do, but sometimes they will just sit and watch as well, depends on the situation.

An abundance of food for coastal and even the southern interior Alaskan Brown Bears has to be a factor in a reduction of aggression.

I’ve been involved in two Grizzly ‘incidents’, and I use quotations because it happened to my hunting party, but not to me directly. All three of these happened up the Blackfoot river outside of Missoula.

1. Several years ago we cow-called in a grizzly to our buddy. Couldn’t see what happened but heard it; griz popped out of thick brush ten yards from the shooter. He started yelling and the bear took off before he got his spray out.

2. Same spot, this fall my buddy had to spray a sow with cubs. She bluff-charged repeatedly, getting closer each time. Sprayed her at 15yds and she ran off. Cubs obviously a big factor here.

 

[Firedude]

My dad's cousin ran cattle in island park for years. He shot a few legally that were killing cattle. Fish and game didn't want to move them. Can you blame them?! Shooting one didn't really affect behavior. He said the last one he shot there were 2 together and one off a ways. 2 bears saw one die. He had few problems after that. I don't think hunting affects as much as the association of "That bear died when we went near people. Don't go near people." Animals are smart. As pointed out wolves have changed. It will take time but eventually it will happen.

 

[Bambistew]

1. Several years ago we cow-called in a grizzly to our buddy. Couldn’t see what happened but heard it; griz popped out of thick brush ten yards from the shooter. He started yelling and the bear took off before he got his spray out.

2. Same spot, this fall my buddy had to spray a sow with cubs. She bluff-charged repeatedly, getting closer each time. Sprayed her at 15yds and she ran off. Cubs obviously a big factor here.

Good stuff.

in the second bullet did you guys call in those bears, or come upon them?

I can't imagine that killing/hunting a few bears would change their predatory response to an elk call.

I've talked to a number of people that have lost deer and goats on Kodiak to bears. They hear the shot and come looking for food. Those bears are hunted harder than they ever will be in the L48. They come running to gunshots not away.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I can't imagine that killing/hunting a few bears would change their predatory response to an elk call.

To your point, black bears are hunted pretty hard, and I still have luck calling them in with predator calls.

 

[daltrix99]

Good stuff.

in the second bullet did you guys call in those bears, or come upon them?

I can't imagine that killing/hunting a few bears would change their predatory response to an elk call.

I've talked to a number of people that have lost deer and goats on Kodiak to bears. They hear the shot and come looking for food. Those bears are hunted harder than they ever will be in the L48. They come running to gunshots not away.

It was purely happenstance on the sow with cubs. My buddy heard her walking and thought it was an elk, she popped out at about 30yds. Hadn’t been calling.

 

[Panda Bear]

.I've talked to a number of people that have lost deer and goats on Kodiak to bears. They hear the shot and come looking for food. Those bears are hunted harder than they ever will be in the L48. They come running to gunshots not away.

Exactly !

"would hunting grizzlies reduce conflict with humans?"----------No.

would it reduce conflicts with the Black Bear, White Bear-/ No and No

here in Canada in the last thirty years there has been more humans killed by black bears than grizzles, from memory it is something like 20 Black, 10 Brown and 2 White---not exactly an omg moment IMHO Same with that wolf thread, we have 15000 wolves just in the Territories and 2 deaths, from memory

Anyway what Bamistew said. A Polar is possibly the worst at wanting to take your downed animal, but Grizzles also think a gun shot is a dinner bell

 

[Brian in Montana]

Interesting article, but I think this question is being overthought. Of course hunting them would make them more wary of humans. So they're not herd animals like deer or elk but they do interact. They are probably more like moose in that regard and moose are afraid of people where they're hunted. It might take more time for the griz to learn to be wary, but so what? They'll learn it.

I can tell you I was impressed a couple years ago when I called in 2 wolves when bowhunting elk. I watched the pair of the walk up, sniff the spot I'd been standing when I last called, and immediately bolt. I seriously doubt that would have been the reaction before they started being hunted.

 

[Brian in Montana]

And besides, why do we need to justify hunting grizzly bears if their population is stable and sustainable. They are a big game animal. We don't need any reason beyond that.

 

[bullbugle307]

I recognize that there's a big difference between coastal brown bears and interior grizz in the GYE, but when I read this article yesterday I couldn't help thinking about my experience in Alaska in Bristol Bay. I spent two summers up there three years apart from one another. While there was always hunting for bears up there, they instituted a rule that, as I recall, allowed for the killing of brown bears up to 5 miles from the villages between the first and second summer I spent up there. This was in addition to the regular hunting seasons and I believe it extended beyond the normal season lengths.

The first summer, we saw a hell of a lot of bears. Sometimes 12-14 bears per day, visible from the kitchen window. They lacked fear of humans and caused problems. The second summer I saw two bears total, and both got the hell outta dodge when they heard the boat motoring across the lake even though we were quite a ways away and well outside the 5 mile range from the nearest village.

I don't wanna read too much into that as to how it would apply in the GYE, but at the same time it seems to me that, anecdotally, in that particular set of circumstances, there was certainly a behavioral change in the bears rather than simply a vast reduction in their numbers causing fewer sightings. I'm sure increased mortality decreased the number of sightings, but I have my doubts that that accounted for everything and clearly the remaining bears we saw were way more skittish. They went from acting like you didn't exist to acting like you were their worst enemy.

I don't have the numbers to back it up and don't have the time to dig into it, but there was a vast difference in my experience between those two summers that I can't ignore.

 

[Sytes]

And besides, why do we need to justify hunting grizzly bears if their population is stable and sustainable. They are a big game animal. We don't need any reason beyond that.

People and Companies that openly state your purchase of their items directly fund their "Actionwork" projects, such as;

Yvon Chouinard: Save the Yellowstone Grizzly - Patagonia Stories

In the wake of the decision by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to delist the grizzly, the three states around Yellowstone have announced their intentions

www.patagonia.com

Opponents say that the effects of climate change on food sources, in addition to their famously slow reproductive rate, coupled with a trophy hunt, would put the bears on the path to extinction... - Yvon Chouinard

 

[406dn]

I hope that some year soon that Grizzly bear management is returned to the states and some level of hunting is resumed. However I think it is thorny issue that may well keep the hunting of them in limbo for a long time. I think British Columbia has recently ended legal hunting for Grizzly bears. Certainly their population could sustain legal hunting. It is a reality in today's world that the hunting of Grizzly bears is highly charged politically.

While its been a few years since I've read "The Mark of the Grizzly" the common thread in most attacks was a surprise close encounter, very often a sow with cubs. Since any hunting of Grizzly bears would certainly have sows off limits, I really doubt that their defense of their cubs would change significantly.

Like many elk hunters, if I'm hunting elk, there are Grizzly bears around, maybe close by, maybe not. Without a doubt, that influences how you handle many things. This is the first year in recent memory that I never saw any fresh sign of them.

Hopefully there will be some level of hunting for them in the near future. I would never expect that their behavior would be changed in a meaningful way. There were several incidents this fall in the Gravelly Mountains. At least one involved the shooting of the bear( don't remember if the bear was killed or found). My money is that next fall, things will be more or less the same.