Who And What Was George Custer?

shrapnel said:
Using your logic, Tom Brady should never be considered one of the greatest quarterbacks in NFL history because he not only threw interceptions, but he also lost games.
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If you want to go NFL QBs I think a better comparison would be Brett Favre - he threw way too many picks that cost his teams very big games. His bravado won him some and lost him some. But Favre was a top 25 QB compared to all others and there is no way Custer is ranked that high compared to other soldiers so I myself wouldn't use this analogy.
 
VikingsGuy said:
If you want to go NFL QBs I think a better comparison would be Brett Favre - he threw way too many picks that cost his teams very big games. His bravado won him some and lost him some. But Favre was a top 25 QB compared to all others and there is no way Custer is ranked that high compared to other soldiers so I myself wouldn't use this analogy.
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Of course you wouldn’t because it doesn’t fit your narrative. If I were to ask you specifically what you knew about Custer and what he actually did, you couldn’t answer in a matter of minutes because you would have to look up whatever the situation was and what was written about it. I am O.K. with that, but you need to reign in your critical assessment because you really don’t know that much.
 
A good read suggested to me by a friend and my younger brother covers a lot of what happened to indigenous people in the Americas with its discovery by Europeans.

The books title is Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. It's worth your time.
 
shrapnel said:
Of course you wouldn’t because it doesn’t fit your narrative. If I were to ask you specifically what you knew about Custer and what he actually did, you couldn’t answer in a matter of minutes because you would have to look up whatever the situation was and what was written about it. I am O.K. with that, but you need to reign in your critical assessment because you really don’t know that much.
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I have read enough (did lots of history reading back in the day) to not be impressed - your fan boy-ism has done nothing to change that. I am not saying there aren't pros/cons regarding him - I just find your spin too one-sided to be credible.

Also (to your chosen analogy) in the pantheon of all American military leaders, are you really suggesting he is one of the top 2 greatest of all time (i.e., Brady comparison) or a top 20 of all time (ie.e, Favre)? There is no way history - even favorable history - puts him in this class.
 
406dn said:
A good read suggested to me by a friend and my younger brother covers a lot of what happened to indigenous people in the Americas with its discovery by Europeans.

The books title is Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. It's worth your time.
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I've read that and I would agree with you. A bit on the heavy side.
 
VikingsGuy said:
I have read enough (did lots of history reading back in the day) to not be impressed - your fan boy-ism has done nothing to change that. I am not saying there aren't pros/cons regarding him - I just find your spin too one-sided to be credible.

Also (to your chosen analogy) in the pantheon of all American military leaders, are you really suggesting he is one of the top 2 greatest of all time (i.e., Brady comparison) or a top 20 of all time (ie.e, Favre)? There is no way history - even favorable history - puts him in this class.
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I like your use of “pantheon” to help your flailing in a topic beyond your scope of knowledge. I never said I was a fan boy, that is your term. I have only revealed historical information on a dynamic individual that is largely misunderstood.

I have never said or inferred that I knew what he thought or what his intentions might be, just posting what did happen and what may have happened under different circumstances.

No claim was made that Custer was in the top 2 or 3 military leaders in military history, but there isn’t a single military leader that had more written about.

You forget your dialogue because you don’t know what it is or you are not good at communicating, but it was you making your point by comparing Custer’s failure at the Little Bighorn to how it should play a more important role on his record, and Tom Brady making a bad pass or losing a game turns to to a discussion on the virtues of his place in sports.

We certainly will disagree, but I would say you don’t know near enough to be the critic you are.
 
VikingsGuy said:
I have read enough (did lots of history reading back in the day) to not be impressed - your fan boy-ism has done nothing to change that. I am not saying there aren't pros/cons regarding him - I just find your spin too one-sided to be credible.

Also (to your chosen analogy) in the pantheon of all American military leaders, are you really suggesting he is one of the top 2 greatest of all time (i.e., Brady comparison) or a top 20 of all time (ie.e, Favre)? There is no way history - even favorable history - puts him in this class.
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Difficult to compare the different eras. Custer didn't have the passing offense of say a Patton or McArthur.
 
shrapnel said:
I have only revealed historical information on a dynamic individual that is largely misunderstood.
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You cherry picked-data to support your view, as we all do. He wasn't misunderstood. There were dozens of young men in that era that were just like him. Brash and over confident, they went West seeking adventure. He just happened to graduate from West point (last in his class with one of the worst records of anyone to ever attend the academy) so he got to do that with a government army uniform on.
 
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SAJ-99 said:
You cherry picked-data to support your view, as we all do. He wasn't misunderstood. There were dozens of young men in that era that were just like him. Brash and over confident, they went West seeking adventure. He just happened to graduate from West point (last in his class with one of the worst records of anyone to ever attend the academy) so he got to do that with a government army uniform on.
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When anyone "reveals the truth" the rest of us don't see, I tend to stop listening (as I will now do here) - something about the tone/implication of that choice of words I guess. ;)
 
SAJ-99 said:
You cherry picked-data to support your view, as we all do. He wasn't misunderstood. There were dozens of young men in that era that were just like him. Brash and over confident, they went West seeking adventure. He just happened to graduate from West point (last in his class with one of the worst records of anyone to ever attend the academy) so he got to do that with a government army uniform on.
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Actually there may have been hundreds, even thousands with confidence and brashness, but none, not even the top of that class at West Point that came close to him in his Civil War accomplishments. Can you tell me who it was that graduated #1?

Perfect is far from a Custer adjective, but the criticism is mostly over blown. I will admit it looks like I am his defense council, and I do feel defensive in his regard, but I am still impressed with all of his leadership abilities as he performed them amongst his peers in a time that most people here can’t relate to.

Gettysburg, Yellow Tavern, Antietam, and Appomattox are familiar Civil War battles, but few know how Custer’s leadership at each of those changed the course for the Union forces.

As people are familiar with the loss at the Little Bighorn, few have any knowledge of those particular Civil War battles, not to mention countless other acts of bravery and daring that also helped the war effort.
 
VikingsGuy said:
That list is not relevant to this discussion, but thanks for the derail attempt anyhow (see, logical fallacies)

As for this discussion, how does blaming the white Spaniards (as compared to other white Europeans) for small pox of any use to this discussion? I take it you are not of Spanish descent and that stating this somehow absolves you from something?

My ancestors were Norwegian immigrants who didn't do any of these things and didn't even come to American 'til almost 1900. But that doesn't mean I lack empathy for Native Americans who lost their lands and have been treated terribly by any definition and Blacks who were enslaved and treated even worse until the 1970s. How about we let folks express their upset and then engage in making the future better rather than somehow getting all defensive and arguing the semantics of who are "white men" and who amongst them can be blamed. The question is not who should be blamed for the past - but who will rise to improve the future. And currently, I see lots of fellow rural whites spending more time pointing out their lack of guilt than actually trying to be part of a solution.

It's as if we all came across a horrible car accident but rather than extracting the victim and giving them medical assistance, we all stand around pointing out that we neither caused this accident nor did we ever cause any other accident - in fact, our ancestors didn't even have cars. After several rounds of this "productive" debate, we all feel so comfortable in our lack of "responsibility" for the accident that we all wander off - and no one seems to care that the driver is still trapped in the car. (for those who are Christian, I read Luke 10:25 to suggest I do more than this, YMMV)
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I’m actually part Native American from my mom’s side of the family but I’m mostly of Norwegian descent too. I don’t blame Spaniards but it’s interesting to hear from the Meateater talk that they killed off 95% of the population before settlers even landed in whats now the US. I’m tired of all the politically correct people like you blaming me for shiatt that I didn’t do.
 
Gr8bawana said:
In the west? They lived on the entirety of North America.
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You are correct, they did occupy all sorts of places, do you really think there were 50 million? sorry not buying that, the southwest was extremely limited by climate, much of the southwest settlements were abandoned in the 1300's and archeologists are still debating the reason why. Some of my friends are Pueblean Indians and their oral history suggests very low population. Until the Ute's stole horses from the Spanish who brought both disease and transportation they were limited by food. I grew up playing lacrosse with Iroquois and again their history was subjugation of adjacent tribes like the Mohawk, the original lacrosse was played with the heads of enemies killed in battle. How many were here, who knows for sure, not necessarily relevant to the discussion. I have read multiple histories of Custer, and I tend to agree with Shrapnel that he was not as stupid as some would have you believe. Were our ancestors perfect, not! By the way I am all for reparations as long as it involves giving California back to Mexico!
 
shrapnel said:
Actually there may have been hundreds, even thousands with confidence and brashness, but none, not even the top of that class at West Point that came close to him in his Civil War accomplishments. Can you tell me who it was that graduated #1?

Perfect is far from a Custer adjective, but the criticism is mostly over blown. I will admit it looks like I am his defense council, and I do feel defensive in his regard, but I am still impressed with all of his leadership abilities as he performed them amongst his peers in a time that most people here can’t relate to.

Gettysburg, Yellow Tavern, Antietam, and Appomattox are familiar Civil War battles, but few know how Custer’s leadership at each of those changed the course for the Union forces.

As people are familiar with the loss at the Little Bighorn, few have any knowledge of those particular Civil War battles, not to mention countless other acts of bravery and daring that also helped the war effort.
Click to expand...
Ranald MacKenzie graduated 1st in his class the year after Custer and essentially finished the Indian Wars in defeating the Comanche. He was wounded multiple times in the Civil War and his record stands equal to Custers, but we could debate with no conclusion. Custer had many accomplishments in the civil war and was admired for leading from the front in battle. However, at Gettysburg his Michigan brigade had the highest losses of any infantry group in the battle. Again, if you charge the enemy position and win, the losses are acceptable. If you don't, your place is history might be a little different. Then there is the Kansas court-martial where Custer threatened to shoot any deserters but would later himself go AWOL and abandoned his post to go see his wife.

MacKenzie's place in history is relatively obscure, especially compared to Custer. I think this admiration should be given to Custer's widowed wife for pumping up his story. I also compare Custer to a famous rock star or other personality that dies young. Nothing builds a legend like dying young. I'm sure Custer would smile at the fact we are even talking about him and having this debate 150yrs later.
 
JustinsDad said:
I’m actually part Native American from my mom’s side of the family but I’m mostly of Norwegian descent too. I don’t blame Spaniards but it’s interesting to hear from the Meateater talk that they killed off 95% of the population before settlers even landed in whats now the US. I’m tired of all the politically correct people like you blaming me for shiatt that I didn’t do.
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Nope - not liberal, not politically correct, not blaming anyone. But I have been known to argue against the trivialized and whitewashed history of the US some seem to prefer over the messy (and quite amazing) reality. I also have been known to suggest we care for one another even if we don't have to. If that is "blaming" or "politically correct" then I guess we are reading from different dictionaries.
 
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