I’ve never hunted whitetails. I’ve only seen maybe 100 of them in my life but I have watched a lot of hunting shows. I have noticed that in those shows, in the ones filmed in the East, Midwest and the South 8 out of 10 of the really big bucks killed are what they call an 8 point. In reality they are of course 3 point or 3x3 bucks, but I guess that’s just a matter of semantics. Now in the shows that are filmed out west the really big bucks seem to almost always be 4x4 or bigger (10 point eastern). Am I imagining this or do western whitetails tend to grow more points than their eastern counter parts?
Whitetail, east vs. west
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LCH
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Might just be the specific area, but around here (Indiana) I'd guess 80-90% of bucks will be 10 points or better if given enough time.
Bowhuntrben
Well-known member
I'm not familiar with western whitetails, but in Minnesota where I hunt, there are loads of bucks that are 10 points or better, particularly if you find a deer that is 3.5 years or older. It seems most shows that I've seen with whitetails is about how many kills they can get in a 30 minute clip, so I'm not sure how selective they're being....
Bambistew
Well-known member
I guess you'd have to define west and east. There are are like 20 "subspecies" of whitetail in NA, maybe 1/3 in the "west," and 2/3 in the east (of the MS river).
IMO the reason they count all the points is because of the amount of pressure that is put on deer in most areas of the east. Few deer live past 2-3 years in the east, hence the reason to come up with a way to make it sound like you shot a big deer by counting all the points.
How points are counted is regional, there is no right or wrong way, nor is one better than the other. BTW most all whitetail hunters count the brow tines (I think it's unusual to not count them actually), They may say 10 point or 5x5. Mule deer hunters tend to exclude browtines because they usually don't' grow them until they are older, and the majority of bucks killed are young. If a guy says he killed a 5x5 mule deer, I take that as 4 points on a side and a browtine, or if they say 4x4, I take it as a small 4 point or it could be a large one. Again it really doesn't matter.
IMO the majority of deer are killed in about 8 different sub-species in the US. This is how I group them, right or wrong:
Canada has a few different sub-species as well, and most all of them grow to giant proportions.
Do bigger bucks come from the west? No. The biggest deer live in the heartland of the US and Canada. The top places I would chose to chase giant whitetails would be KS, IA, Saskatchewan and Alberta. As a matter of fact, the only guided hunt I would ever consider would be for whitetails in Sask, or Alberta due to regulations.
IMO the reason they count all the points is because of the amount of pressure that is put on deer in most areas of the east. Few deer live past 2-3 years in the east, hence the reason to come up with a way to make it sound like you shot a big deer by counting all the points.
How points are counted is regional, there is no right or wrong way, nor is one better than the other. BTW most all whitetail hunters count the brow tines (I think it's unusual to not count them actually), They may say 10 point or 5x5. Mule deer hunters tend to exclude browtines because they usually don't' grow them until they are older, and the majority of bucks killed are young. If a guy says he killed a 5x5 mule deer, I take that as 4 points on a side and a browtine, or if they say 4x4, I take it as a small 4 point or it could be a large one. Again it really doesn't matter.
IMO the majority of deer are killed in about 8 different sub-species in the US. This is how I group them, right or wrong:
- The upper west/North West (ID/WA/OR/NW MT) A few giants killed here, but not a ton of deer in general.
- The north central west (MT/ND/SD/WY/northern NB/Western MN) generally nice representative bucks, some of the prettiest capes
- The Central West plains (eastern CO/Southern NB/KS/OK) some huge deer killed here
- Central MS valley (AR,MO,IA) giants are found here regularly
- South West (Texas, and eastern NM) antler to body ratio is high. I would say by and large more "older" bucks killed than young. Some QDM, lots of private management, etc.
- The mid-west (IN, IL, MI, OH, WI, and Northern KY) Lots of deer, lots of crops, and some giants killed in most all these states every year. WI has always been "the" spot for giant bucks
- Northeast (New England, PA, MD, WV, VA, DE, NJ, NY) Lots of variation throughout, with occasional giants, but most are smaller deer/young
- Southeast (the confederate states) Usually pretty small bodied and smaller antlered bucks.
Canada has a few different sub-species as well, and most all of them grow to giant proportions.
Do bigger bucks come from the west? No. The biggest deer live in the heartland of the US and Canada. The top places I would chose to chase giant whitetails would be KS, IA, Saskatchewan and Alberta. As a matter of fact, the only guided hunt I would ever consider would be for whitetails in Sask, or Alberta due to regulations.
Mudranger1
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I agree with most of what Bambi said except we count all the points because that's how many the deer has not to make it sound big
There's an awful lot of whitetails that do not have an even number of points on both sides. I'd put on money on the percentage being far higher than mule deer. This makes the "one sided" count very awkward.
As to why the brow tine is included in eastern counts, unlike mule deer, a mature whitetail almost always has good brow tines (3+ inches, not uncommon to be 6+ inches). I'm not sure I've ever seen one without brow tines, unlike mule deer where its not uncommon for them to just be nubs.
Also, western counts for elk include the brow tines. Make up your mind.
As to why the brow tine is included in eastern counts, unlike mule deer, a mature whitetail almost always has good brow tines (3+ inches, not uncommon to be 6+ inches). I'm not sure I've ever seen one without brow tines, unlike mule deer where its not uncommon for them to just be nubs.
Also, western counts for elk include the brow tines. Make up your mind.
Bigjay73
Well-known member
I live in Colorado. I count mulies like lumber, whitetails, I count total points. Don't know why I do it that way.
Always wondered why the two different came about. In my years of working in the woods I had the pleasure of working with a couple of guys from back east. One from New York and one from Tennessee. It was always fun every time we saw a buck we had to rib each other about not knowing how count points. It makes sense not counting the brow tine on mule deer or blacktails since if they even have them they are probably pretty insignificant. Although last year I saw what had to be the biggest blacktail I've seen in a decade. A three point by western count but he ad a good 5 inch brow tine on the right and two brow tines on the left. One at least 5 inches and the other maybe 3 inches. If I shot him and was bragging I think I might want to claim those points.
Pucky Freak
Well-known member
A 1 1/2 year old buck may sport spikes, or even a mini 10-point rack, depending mainly on nutrition.
A 2 1/2 year old buck can have a wide range of antler points, usually from 4-10, depending on nutrition. Most common is 8 point with decent nutrition. Antlers are spindly.
Your typical/average whitetail buck has 10 total antler points, including brow times and the main beams, by age 3 1/2, and will continue to produce 10 point racks through his lifetime, until he become an old deer, and then often will produce fewer points.
I say "typical/average", but there are all kinds of exceptions. A 10-point rack is the baseline by which other racks are usually compared. Maybe 50-60% of deer in a population will have this appearance. In my mancave I have 3 neat 4x4 racks. Two are 3 1/2 year old bucks, and one was a 250+ lb monarch I estimate to be 10 years old based on body weight/shape. I'm also currently working on a restoring a gnarly deadhead I found that has 3 antlers (pics to come)
There are some exceptions to this, such as FL Keys deer (avg mature buck maybe has 3 points on one side).
If you see pics or footage of bucks in the mid-atlantic (PA, MD, WV, VA, DE), you will frequently see small racks. This is due mainly to poorer nutrition and most bucks are killed young in these states due to local culture/management and hunting pressure.
Gulf South (LA, MS, AL, FL, some parts of TX) is like the QDM belt of America. Despite natural selection producing small bodied deer in this subtropical climate, lot of hunt clubs extensively focus on soil management, food plots, genetics, herd management, and produce some impressively large racks. A lot of people wait until bucks are fully mature before harvesting them. This is all private land, much of which is high fence (canned shooting). The racks typically don't usually rival fertile midwest bucks, but the small bodied deer make the headgear appear enormous.
Far north bucks such as northern MN, ND, WI, as well as Sask, and ON have huge bodies and thick coats. This can make the antlers appear small in proportion to the body, but actually the racks can be quite large.
In Iowa, you will never hear a serious deer hunter, at least any bow hunter, mention antler points. Instead we talk about points, i.e. B&C inches. You'll talk about 130 class, 160 class, etc. Personally, I usually pass on all bucks younger than 3 1/2 years. This is easily determined, with some practice, by field judging the circumference of the antler base.
A 2 1/2 year old buck can have a wide range of antler points, usually from 4-10, depending on nutrition. Most common is 8 point with decent nutrition. Antlers are spindly.
Your typical/average whitetail buck has 10 total antler points, including brow times and the main beams, by age 3 1/2, and will continue to produce 10 point racks through his lifetime, until he become an old deer, and then often will produce fewer points.
I say "typical/average", but there are all kinds of exceptions. A 10-point rack is the baseline by which other racks are usually compared. Maybe 50-60% of deer in a population will have this appearance. In my mancave I have 3 neat 4x4 racks. Two are 3 1/2 year old bucks, and one was a 250+ lb monarch I estimate to be 10 years old based on body weight/shape. I'm also currently working on a restoring a gnarly deadhead I found that has 3 antlers (pics to come)
There are some exceptions to this, such as FL Keys deer (avg mature buck maybe has 3 points on one side).
If you see pics or footage of bucks in the mid-atlantic (PA, MD, WV, VA, DE), you will frequently see small racks. This is due mainly to poorer nutrition and most bucks are killed young in these states due to local culture/management and hunting pressure.
Gulf South (LA, MS, AL, FL, some parts of TX) is like the QDM belt of America. Despite natural selection producing small bodied deer in this subtropical climate, lot of hunt clubs extensively focus on soil management, food plots, genetics, herd management, and produce some impressively large racks. A lot of people wait until bucks are fully mature before harvesting them. This is all private land, much of which is high fence (canned shooting). The racks typically don't usually rival fertile midwest bucks, but the small bodied deer make the headgear appear enormous.
Far north bucks such as northern MN, ND, WI, as well as Sask, and ON have huge bodies and thick coats. This can make the antlers appear small in proportion to the body, but actually the racks can be quite large.
In Iowa, you will never hear a serious deer hunter, at least any bow hunter, mention antler points. Instead we talk about points, i.e. B&C inches. You'll talk about 130 class, 160 class, etc. Personally, I usually pass on all bucks younger than 3 1/2 years. This is easily determined, with some practice, by field judging the circumference of the antler base.
Bowhuntrben
Well-known member
This. I hunt not far from the Iowa border in Minnesota. Number of points doesn't mean a lot. I tend to focus on trying to get an older deer rather than number of points. 4.5 years old is a good goal for a year, and you will have a great buck. If you can find one that makes it to 5.5 years old, it will be huge..however many points it has. From what I've seen where I hunt, you can expect a 3.5 year old to be anywhere from 120-145. A 4.5 year old will likely be somewhere between 140 and 160. A 5.5 year old will likely be 160 or better (and potentially much much better). There are certainly exceptions to this on both ends, but that's what you could expect around here. I don't really care that much about score either but use it as a gage. Deer with a lot of points can throw off score (add up fast) even though they're not really as big as some with fewer points.
LCH
Well-known member
I think number of antler points is a very important detail in describing the size of a buck. A 150" 8 point is a much more impressive animal than a 150" 12 point.
Pucky Freak
Well-known member
I have a 154" 8-point that I think is seriously cool. One tine is 13" alone, two tines are palmated, and antler bases are 5 3/4" circumference. If I had a 12-point with stickers and splits that was 154" I would think it was equally as cool, just different.
As some stated above: We seldom mention points at all around here. Unless it's like a 150" 8 point or a 15 pointer or something out of the norm. It's not so much about score either, but more like "a nice 20 incher" or a "heavy horned 18 incher" or just "a pretty good'n". Most guys around here, as I'm sure is the case most places, really have no idea how to score and you couldn't trust anyone's number anyway (always about 20" higher than reality). You may hear "just a good solid 8 pt" but not that often.
And for you western guys - the spread is measured INSIDE...
And for you western guys - the spread is measured INSIDE...
Preacher shaner
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A friend of mine killed a buck with 9 in brow tines would that be a 3x3 or a 4x4 or 8pt.
I grew up calling them by there full points. Not a half by half because thats how many points that he had
I grew up calling them by there full points. Not a half by half because thats how many points that he had
LCH
Well-known member
If you can hang a ring on it, it counts! LOL
I just assume the lingo that whoever I'm talking to will understand. Around here a 4x4 is a truck and a 6x6 is a fencepost.
I just assume the lingo that whoever I'm talking to will understand. Around here a 4x4 is a truck and a 6x6 is a fencepost.
MThuntr
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Listen to the MeatEater Podcast Episode 162 Landscape of Fear. Lots of discussion about antler sizing based on nutrition and genetics (or perceived lack thereof)
HuntTalk Freak
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It's hard not to count the browtines when they look like this. On the same land this guy came from I have seen bucks with no brows at all. I've never seen another buck out there with a rack similar to his though, he was just passing through and I got lucky by spotting him. It's a regional thing and I've acclimated to the western way of describing mule deer. I still speak Texan when it comes to whitetail.
Buffs35
Well-known member
Beauty. I would call that a monster, regardless of how many "points" it has.
