White House Budget Cuts LWCF by $120 Million

[Sytes]

I'm not interested in the keyboard @#)(# measuring contest here... As usual, this occurs with those here that find personal attacks supersede the subject matter.

My thoughts are the States should take on a "Stewardship" position over Federal land. I am sick and tired of these "environmental" activists harming our American families livelihood... Flat out sick of them. Logging, as mentioned in previous threads, mining, oil exploration, etc all shelved over activist / partisan rants. I support Zinke's prior sponsored/co-sponsored attempts at this and believe the Ds are directly harming our public lands by the "All we want or nothing" fight. This is equally considered regarding the Rs "All we want or nothing" platform as well. This fight... leaves those of us that are not sooo damn partisan aligned questioning why the hell you guys and gals continue this war! Stop for f*&% sake! You both harm our American families as we should be able to find some way to encourage our USA industry machine and respect our public lands.

Re: Budget cuts - I don't like seeing anything cut. HOWEVER, when the S$%& hits the fan - someone has to say, "Hold up! We've gotta make some cuts!" 20 TRILLION $ in debt! Little Jack and Diane may not have the $ for the chili dog outside the tasty freeze...

 

[npaden]

Ben, back to the original title of the thread. Do you have the budget numbers for the LWCF for the last 10 or 15 years? Is the 2018 budget dramatically lower than the historical funding? As I pointed out, even with the 1.5 billion dollar budget cut to the overall department of the interior budget, it is still 1.0 billion more than it was just 8 years ago. It's pretty hard to say the sky is falling when the budget has increased at almost exactly the same pace as CPI.

I tried to do some google searching on the subject and the information wasn't very accessible on the LWCF specifically. What I did find lead me to believe that even with the $120 million cut out of it, the 2018 budget for LWCF was going to be more than it was in the early Obama years and for sure more than the Bush years. There were some years where it looked like the current funding would be more than double some of those years.

Also, isn't the LWCF somewhat tied to offshore drilling taxes? With oil prices down wouldn't that drop the fund budget? I'm not sure how those tie together. In my attempt to research I keep seeing it referred to as a budget cap. Does anything that is brought in from the taxes on offshore drilling that is over the cap go to the general budget?

Just trying to get to some facts.

Thanks, Nathan

 

[Ben Lamb]

Nathan,

I'm running behind on a few things this morning, so will provide some links and will check back as I can:

CRS report from 2016 on LWCF: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44121.pdf

Tax Foundation report on offshore mineral royalties: https://taxfoundation.org/federal-mineral-royalty-disbursements-states-and-effects-sequestration/

The LWCF Coalition has a lot of good information about the Fund and what it does & doesn't do, as well as past asks from the Coalition (of which RMEF is a member): http://www.lwcfcoalition.org/

More later. Big day at the Capitol hustling votes today.

 

[u1299]

Well this turned out swimmingly.

Back to the budget cuts to Interior & USDA:

1.) The budget cuts are not shared across the spectrum in these agencies. Divisions that work on conservation were slashed, while divisions that focus on oil, gas and mining were beefed up. The cuts didn't hurt any extraction industry aspect of the budget except the ones where sportsmen care the most: wildlife, wildlife management, habitat improvement and access programs. These cuts fly in the face of Zinke's SO signed his first day, and make that order worthless.

2.) Cutting LWCF to pay for Park infrastructure is a Bishop wish list item. We've just had a president eliminate, effectively, the most popular access program in the United States to pay for the infrastructure that Trump said we'd pay for in other ways. Say goodbye to projects like Red Hill, new Wildlife Management Areas, Fishing Access Sites, City Parks, etc. This program used to fund most of those things.

3.) Funding to keep Asian Carp out of the Great Lakes, while continuing the clean up in those lakes that would create much better sport and commercial fishing was cut to 0%. Unless restored by the House, this cut will have serious effects to a multitude of species and industries, as well as placing the burden solely on the backs of the states, who can't afford to fund these programs at their needed levels.

4.) From The TRCP Press release on the budget:



5.) Trump's budget is a direct contrast to his campaign promises of better managing the lands, and being "excellent stewards" of them. Nobody from the conservation community expected mom & apple pie. What we did expect is for a president who ran as the sportsman's candidate to actually live up to his rhetoric and not slash the exact programs he championed while sucking up for your vote. Cutting programs that help rural Americans get clean water, fight invasive species and manage public lands for multiple use shouldn't be viewed as a liberal versus conservative fight. It should be viewed for what it is:A gift to the same people who have tried to steal your public lands for decades, and who have tried to eliminate public land access programs.

Sorry Ben, not being a Monday Morning Quarterback here but I didn't expect Trump to live up to 1 damn campaign promise. Every day I'm more convinced the most unqualified unhinged lunatic in the history of this Country occupies the White House. I'm fearful of a hell of a lot more than my Public Lands at this point in time.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Re: Budget cuts - I don't like seeing anything cut. HOWEVER, when the S$%& hits the fan - someone has to say, "Hold up! We've gotta make some cuts!" 20 TRILLION $ in debt! Little Jack and Diane may not have the $ for the chili dog outside the tasty freeze...

I agree Charles, but the rub is where the cuts occur, and what those cuts will ultimately do to the tax base that suffers when the recreational economy takes a back seat to other interests with significant tax breaks and especially in a budget that does not reduce the deficit, but grows it, as the Trump budget does.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Sorry Ben, not being a Monday Morning Quarterback here but I didn't expect Trump to live up to 1 damn campaign promise. Every day I'm more convinced the most unqualified unhinged lunatic in the history of this Country occupies the White House. I'm fearful of a hell of a lot more than my Public Lands at this point in time.

I agree 100%!

 

[sagebrush]

My internship when I was in college was with the Ohio EPA as a "fish-shocker" for the summer. True, it isn't federal...but the amount of wasted money/assets I saw was mind-blowing. The first few days there were a real eye-opener. One of the first things we did was clean out all of the old waders from the previous summers interns and get them off of the drying racks and disposed of in the dumpster. Granted, nobody wanted to be using the waders somebody had sweated all summer in the previous year. The real eye-opener was when they asked us the throw out the brand new waders that were still in the box and in storage. There were dozens of pairs....easily enough to supply all us interns for the summer. They went in the dumpster...without ever being taken from the box or having the tags removed. The next day, there were pallets of new waders that they had ordered in....just like the ones we threw away the day before.

Another example: They replaced all of the copiers with new copiers that used a lighter, more "environmental friendly" paper. The stockroom had 3 full pallets of the old style paper. All of it was thrown away. We asked if we could donate it to a elementary school just down the road from the office, and even volunteered to take it down on our own time and with our vehicles. The answer was a resounding "NO"....no explanation...just no.

There are many more stories from the 8 months or so I spent there I could tell you...but I'd probably need a book. It was without a doubt the most wasteful place I ever worked. I don't agree necessarily with all of the budget cuts and what they will affect...but I without a doubt agree that agencies need audited and held accountable for using our money.

Bingo. Anyone that has been around government agencies has numerous observations just like this. I can't tell you how many times I heard "we have to use this or throw it away because if we don't we won't get a budget increase next year". With these budget cuts will come efficiency. It will also take some personnel changes to get rid of the waste from "who cares, its not my money" attitude.

 

[OriginalOscar]

I agree 100%!

That's touching. You should meet and go find a bar together. Utah's in the middle.

 

[Mule Deer]

Bingo. Anyone that has been around government agencies has numerous observations just like this. I can't tell you how many times I heard "we have to use this or throw it away because if we don't we won't get a budget increase next year". With these budget cuts will come efficiency. It will also take some personnel changes to get rid of the waste from "who cares, its not my money" attitude.

Ive worked for two government agencies and multiple offices. While I won't deny the way of doing certain things isn't highly efficient, that's not a agency problem, it's a checks and balances problem brought on by congress.

But I feel compelled to say something. Of all the places I've been, the mere thought of throwing out something new and usable is not how any government office would do things. Never in a million years. Especially with all the budget cuts. And these places have an avenue to get rid of old and new things through donation or auction. So whoever the Ohio epa is, does not represent federal policies.

Sorry, but that's asinine and people talking and saying they see stuff like that in government is a flat out a lie. It has it's issues with all the policies how they are. Trying to please everyone, and all the law suits make efficiency difficult. But plain old wasting money and resources does not exist

.
Now if you're talking about spending there allocated budget for the year to keep there money the following year. Then yes that happens. Again not a agency problem. It's a way the money is allocated problem.

 

[dcopas78]

Sorry, but that's asinine and people talking and saying they see stuff like that in government is a flat out a lie. It has it's issues with all the policies how they are. Trying to please everyone, and all the law suits make efficiency difficult. But plain old wasting money and resources does not exist

I have no reason to lie, and I personally participated in this. I'm not saying all government agencies would do this, but I know for a fact the OEPA did it while I was there. I don't think a rolloff labeled "Waste Management" was going to be donated or auctioned someplace. Now I work for local government. We never dispose of anything unless it is completely useless. If it still has some life in it, it is auctioned or donated.

BTW, I have worked directly or contracted with dozens of government agencies, state, federal and local....from FEMA, OSHA, NASA, USDOT, USEPA, state environmental agencies in Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Michigan, West Virginia, Virginia. It does happen whether you have saw it or not. OEPA just happened to be the worst.

 

[dcopas78]

Sorry Ben. Back to the topic at hand, is there any specific place that I might find information on how this might affect sportsman in Ohio? I would like to have some in mind for my letters to the reps and the senator. I seem to remember seeing this somewhere once before, but I can't seem to find it now.

 

[BigHornRam]

Ben, back to the original title of the thread. Do you have the budget numbers for the LWCF for the last 10 or 15 years? Is the 2018 budget dramatically lower than the historical funding? As I pointed out, even with the 1.5 billion dollar budget cut to the overall department of the interior budget, it is still 1.0 billion more than it was just 8 years ago. It's pretty hard to say the sky is falling when the budget has increased at almost exactly the same pace as CPI.

I tried to do some google searching on the subject and the information wasn't very accessible on the LWCF specifically. What I did find lead me to believe that even with the $120 million cut out of it, the 2018 budget for LWCF was going to be more than it was in the early Obama years and for sure more than the Bush years. There were some years where it looked like the current funding would be more than double some of those years.

Also, isn't the LWCF somewhat tied to offshore drilling taxes? With oil prices down wouldn't that drop the fund budget? I'm not sure how those tie together. In my attempt to research I keep seeing it referred to as a budget cap. Does anything that is brought in from the taxes on offshore drilling that is over the cap go to the general budget?

Just trying to get to some facts.

Thanks, Nathan

Very good questions Nathan. Thanks for trying to move the discussion in a positive non partisan direction.

 

[MTGomer]

Sorry, but that's asinine and people talking and saying they see stuff like that in government is a flat out a lie."

No, it's not a lie. I would say it is par for the course in my experiences with many different functions of parasite sector agencies and employees.
Efficiency and accountability are the exception not the norm.

And it won't change because performing, productive people get tired of it and move to the productive sector where they can excel.
I've seen the turnover time and time again.
Of course there are exceptions. The BLM Northern Rockies region land surveyors are one of the exceptions.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hope Hoop changes his mind, I'll take coarse frankness over simpering sour grapes bitchassed'ness anytime.

Don't worry too much for him, I doubt he stays gone. Of all the Internet "I'm Leaving" rants, that one was pretty weak, didn't seem to have a log of conviction. He'll be back, being offended that his version of 'Merica isn't embraced by all.

 

[noharleyyet]

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll produce replacement fans.

 

[Nameless Range]

I would say it is par for the course in my experiences with many different functions of parasite sector agencies and employees.
Efficiency and accountability are the exception not the norm.

And it won't change because performing, productive people get tired of it and move to the productive sector where they can excel.
I've seen the turnover time and time again.
Of course there are exceptions. The BLM Northern Rockies region land surveyors are one of the exceptions.

I'd say this is largely B.S.

I've worked in both the public and private sector. There is waste in both, probably more waste in one than the other, as could conversely be said for nepotism.

The idea the productive people get tired of it and move on to the private sector just isn't true in the fields I am familiar with. I see a trend of people leaving the private sector for State and Federal jobs because the job security is better, the work is more interesting, and the toys are more powerful. This results in more competition for public sector jobs than private sector, which results in better people getting those jobs to serve the public. Generally, the applicant pools are more impressive.

Not saying waste doesn't exist and certain aspects of spending shouldn't have more oversight, but the idea the efficiency and accountability aren't the norm is garbage. Most public employees are proud of the jobs they do and the services they provide and are expected to do more with less on an annual basis. The hydrologists I know provide their own waders too.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll produce replacement fans.

With my luck, likely more Texans....

 

[dcopas78]

Not saying waste doesn't exist and certain aspects of spending shouldn't have more oversight, but the idea the efficiency and accountability aren't the norm is garbage. Most public employees are proud of the jobs they do and the services they provide and are expected to do more with less on an annual basis. The hydrologists I know provide their own waders too.

Agreed, and agreed(proud to be a public employee myself). Many agencies are efficient, accountable, etc., etc. but people tend to focus on the bad ones. I didn't mean to stir the pot with my examples, just that it has happened and it gives all agencies a bad rap. Maybe I shouldn't have posted it, but that example is how many people across the country view government agencies right now, and I admit it stuck in my head for a while until I saw not all agencies are like that. I would have probably bought my own waders too, but I was a poor college intern making minimum wage Rubber waders smell pretty nasty after a whole summer of sweat accumulation

 

[Gr8bawana]

That's touching. You should meet and go find a bar together. Utah's in the middle.

Nah, no real beer in Utah.

 

[noharleyyet]

With my luck, likely more Texans....

Who says you have any Texas fans now?