When shots are too far for you it doesnt matter what caliber you are toting

[Melman]

I'm starting this thread in response to a post I read on here today about a specific caliber and a long shot and I didn't want to hijack that thread. I think hunters need to start worrying about what shot they can make, not what shot their xyz caliber can make. If you are one of the few people who practice at 600-700 yards or longer great, use your expertise and take the shot. If you are a guy who zeroed your rifle and shot paper a few times at 300 yards off a shooting bench then please. know your limitations. A .308 can shoot and kill an elk at 700 yards, it doesn't mean you can do it with your 30 Nosler at 600 in a cross wind in real world hunting scenarios.

Randy just passed on a broadside shot on a bison he waited 20 something years to shoot, I was watching, my heart pounding and couldn't believe he didn't take the shot. more hunters need to use half as much restraint as Randy did/does when hunting.

we owe it to the animals not to wound them and prolong their death or not recover them with long or marginal shots.

 

[nidahunter]

Sometimes it is hard to do, but I couldnt have said it better.

 

[MT_elk]

Absolutely!

 

[sluggo6850]

Well said!

 

[elkduds]

Agree. This is one major difference between hunting and shooting: live targets. To most of us, killing is an action w emotional consequences. Wounding, even more so. Tales of remorse over losing wounded game are common in forums. In every one of them, a better solution would have been to work for or wait for a better shot. Experience educates us to recognize our capabilities, and the limits of them. We can learn from the experiences of others. We do not have to make every mistake personally.

 

[Dl1969]

I shoot a .308 and practice at 200 and feel comfortable only out to 300 and that’s with a animal that’s calm and broadside.

 

[npaden]

I agree with what you are saying, however you also need to be aware of the caliber's limitations as well.

I am comfortable out to 300 yards and could probably stretch that to 400 yards, however if I'm shooting at a deer with a .223 I'm not going to shoot past 200 yards with that caliber. Even 200 yards is pushing the envelope on deer sized game with it. At 300 yards you get under 500 ft/lbs of energy and I just don't think that is enough.

So although I am comfortable shooting at 300 yards I would not shoot at a deer sized animal at 300 yards with a .223, even with a premium bullet.

Now with my .300 WSM the caliber far exceeds my shooting abilities.

 

[scubohuntr]

There are several aspects to any shot on game that absolutely need to be considered.
1. Is it legal to shoot this animal in this place and time?
2. Am I comfortable making this shot under these conditions?
3. Is my weapon capable of making this shot under these conditions?
4. Will my target still be in the same place when my bullet/arrow arrives?
5. Am I as close as I can realistically get?
6. Where is the animal likely to go, if it does not drop immediately?
7. Will I be able to find a dead animal in the terrain it is standing in?
8. Will I be able to recover the animal in a safe and timely manner?

Number one should be a no-brainer, although there are situations where it can be more complicated. Opening morning this year I was hunting in a zone that allowed brow-tined bulls and antlerless elk. The other side of the canyon, 240 yards away, was in another unit and spike bulls only. Still legal on my tag, but you darn sure need to know where the lines are.

Number two requires that you truly know the conditions, all the way from you to your target. They aren't always the same. Randy had a longish shot moved off target in one episode due to winds between him and the target. Fortunately the result was a simple miss on a gargantuan bull. Had the bull been facing the other way, it likely would have been a gut shot and a lost animal. This is why you practice (which is not at all what most people do when they "sight in" their rifles). You can practice without using a lot of ammo, just by practicing dry firing (with a thoroughly checked empty rifle pointing in a thoroughly safe direction, of course). If you dry fire a lot, you may be able to limit your live fire to 100 rounds a year or so, for a given rifle. Or shoot a decent .22 a lot, and pay attention to what you hit and what you miss. I've actually shot out to 1,000 yards a fair bit. I am confident I could hit the first shot at 600. I'd never take a shot on game at over about half that, though. I'm comfortable at 200-250. Maybe a little bit longer with a good solid rest (bipod on solid ground, prone position). I shoot out to 400 when I practice, just so I'm confident at 250.

Number three means you know the ballistics of your rifle, you know exactly how it groups with this ammo, you know how wind drift affects point of impact, and you know your bullets will perform properly on game.

Number four is something most long range morons don't consider. If you are shooting at extreme range, your projectile, whether it be bullet or arrow, will be in the air and out of your control for up to a second. Deer or elk can move quite a bit in a second.

Number five. Come on, you're a hunter, not some kind of TV assassin. So hunt already.

Number six is not only about a wounded animal heading onto private land where you don't have access. It also reflects the possibility of one running over the ridge out of your sight, into really heavy cover, or into water. You can blood trail under most conditions, but the further your shot, the harder it becomes to get on the blood trail right away. Rain or even blowing snow can obscure a blood trail almost immediately, and if you can't be there within a couple of minutes you may never find it.

Number seven is tricky. Sometimes it's easy- a bull elk out in the open, a whitetail in a hayfield. Sometimes it gets tougher. A pronghorn in a seemingly endless waist-high sagebrush flat, a muley in one of a hundred identical little openings in aspen regrowth. In some places you can walk within a few feet of a dead animal and not know it. In those places, you had better be closer so you can limit the potential area to search. The majority of shots on game are taken in low light, when light conditions are changing quickly. Unless you have a buddy who can stay where you shot from and vector you in, it may be almost impossible to find the exact spot where your target was standing from a long way off. It will look different in different light.

The last one involves a number of possible factors. Out west, many shots are across canyons. If you have a substantial stream at the bottom, it may be impossible to get to the other side. If you crossed the stream on a fallen log or some such, great. How will that work with a full load of meat? In the dark? Fourth load? I had a once-in-a-lifetime elk license in North Dakota a couple of decades ago. I walked in four or five miles from the truck and found a dynamite spot in dark timber, above a wallow, that literally reeked of elk. The temperature was in the nineties. I walked back out. There was no way I'd have been able to recover an elk safely under those conditions. Even disregarding the very real risk of heatstroke, there was no way a completely inexperienced solo elk hunter was going to get an elk quartered and pack out more than maybe one quarter before it spoiled in that heat. I did the same in the West Elk Wilderness in Colorado, the first time I ever hunted elk. I found a burn with good elk sign, but it was 200 vertical feet below the road and nasty with blowdowns. I didn't have four wheel drive at the time, and getting stuck way back in there after dark with snow coming in would have been life-threatening. Again, no way I could have recovered an elk safely.

 

[Melman]

I agree with what you are saying, however you also need to be aware of the caliber's limitations as well.

I am comfortable out to 300 yards and could probably stretch that to 400 yards, however if I'm shooting at a deer with a .223 I'm not going to shoot past 200 yards with that caliber. Even 200 yards is pushing the envelope on deer sized game with it. At 300 yards you get under 500 ft/lbs of energy and I just don't think that is enough.

So although I am comfortable shooting at 300 yards I would not shoot at a deer sized animal at 300 yards with a .223, even with a premium bullet.

Now with my .300 WSM the caliber far exceeds my shooting abilities.

I totally agree. If you are new to hunting or rifles and terminal performance of bullets then by all means, ask the question to a mentor or someone on a site like this. Using marginally sized calibers for hunting is just like taking a marginal shot with an appropriate caliber. We owe it to the animal and ourselves and the people we are hutting with who will most likely have to track and pack an animal to use an appropriate weapon for the job.

 

[Poke 'Em]

I shoot a .308 and practice at 200 and feel comfortable only out to 300 and that’s with a animal that’s calm and broadside.

This isn't personal, but therein lies the issue. Too many hunters STRETCH their comfort zone for a live-animal situation beyond what they've practiced, instead of the opposite.

If you're practiced at 200, you have no frame of reference for your abilities at 300, when you've added in adrenaline, nerves, adverse conditions, etc.

Practice out to 400, then you can reasonably be comfortable out to 300 in a live-animal situation.

 

[haiku_rodney]

I like to believe that Part of being a "skillful" Hunter is being able to close the distance. Shooting and hitting your target is being a good marksman. I personally enjoy the stalk. I have missed a lot of game because they spotted me before I got in range - on well, that's hunting.

 

[widnert]

Good thread. I've seen many, many folks try to stretch themselves beyond their capabilities with negative results. Maybe this discussion will resonate with some folks and pop in their heads when they get into a situation like this. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts.

 

[Dl1969]

This isn't personal, but therein lies the issue. Too many hunters STRETCH their comfort zone for a live-animal situation beyond what they've practiced, instead of the opposite.

If you're practiced at 200, you have no frame of reference for your abilities at 300, when you've added in adrenaline, nerves, adverse conditions, etc.

Practice out to 400, then you can reasonably be comfortable out to 300 in a live-animal situation.

i shoot out to 300 on a regular basis,just hone my shooting in to 200,i feel confident that I can get to under 300 yards of a animal,pretty hard for most ppl to practice out to 400 + yards weekly

 

[7mm08mo]

I have a range within 2 miles of my house that i go to weekly. I shoot around 10 rounds a week, rotating guns every week between 7mm08, 270, and 28 nosler. I practice out to 600 yards in various positions, prone sitting etc. That being said i would never take a shot beyond 400 yards on an animal just because I don't want to. It seems to me that past 500 yards is where a lot more variables come to make a larger difference.

 

[Don Fischer]

I think that many cartridges far out shoot our ability's. Even for people that practice a lot at long range, their odd's of making a good hit will go way up but, they are still shooting through an uncontrolled environment! Doesn't make a lot of difference which cartridge is being used. Someone mentioned getting under 500 pounds energy at 300 yds with a 223. With a proper shot that is plenty. The catch is a proper shot, what is that? Living within the ability of the 22 LR, a decent shot could feed his family very well the rest of his life using a 22 LR! I doubt the energy level will make that much difference. But much easier to shoot 1/2" group at 50yds than 1/2 moa at 300 yds with a 5.56! You are relying completely on hunter ability. Rather than a heart lung shot, a well placed neck shot may be required! That the cartridge can do it mean's little if the shooter can't. Long range hunting as they call it, is a sport unto itself. Totally tied to ego! Someone tell's me they can't get closer than 400 yds and I'm calling foul!

 

[SaskHunter]

I am comfortable with and have shot animals at 300 meters.

I would be confident shooting a large deer out to 400 meters with a good rest and broadside shot. Anything over that is too much for me, making 700 meters shots at the range is much more different than in the field. Same goes for archery, I shoot regularly to 60 yds but will not go past 40 yds when hunting.

 

[heyoldguy]

I wonder how many here shoot at deer and elk at 600-1000+ yards, have read this thread and not responded? I say this because I've heard many people here in Idaho brag about their shots in that range. Sure they do kill the animal at that range, but it seems more like shooting than hunting. They cannot get any closer? I've heard it said, "Man, that bull was so big I just had to take the chance!" Is that fair chase?

Using the old 30-06 I received when my dad died, I had a 600 yard opportunity at the biggest bull I'd ever seen. I had told my hunting partner (my son) that I was good to 300 yards and we just couldn't cross the canyon and get any closer. Watched that bull surrounded by his herd of cows for a good hour and then moved on. Later that day we closed to 334 yards on another nice bull. I wasn't a good enough hunter to get any closer. The boy said, "We let this one go too, right dad?"

A week later I got my bull with a neck shot at 175 yards. He wasn't as big as the others we passed on, but at least I could go pick up their antlers in the spring.

 

[TimeOnTarget]

I wonder how many here shoot at deer and elk at 600-1000+ yards, have read this thread and not responded? I say this because I've heard many people here in Idaho brag about their shots in that range. Sure they do kill the animal at that range, but it seems more like shooting than hunting. They cannot get any closer? I've heard it said, "Man, that bull was so big I just had to take the chance!" Is that fair chase?

Using the old 30-06 I received when my dad died, I had a 600 yard opportunity at the biggest bull I'd ever seen. I had told my hunting partner (my son) that I was good to 300 yards and we just couldn't cross the canyon and get any closer. Watched that bull surrounded by his herd of cows for a good hour and then moved on. Later that day we closed to 334 yards on another nice bull. I wasn't a good enough hunter to get any closer. The boy said, "We let this one go too, right dad?"

A week later I got my bull with a neck shot at 175 yards. He wasn't as big as the others we passed on, but at least I could go pick up their antlers in the spring.

I'm one of the guys you speak of I guess. One of the things that gets me is guys who shoot multiple rifles all the time. Most of these guys maybe put 100 rounds down range each year, and that's probably a stretch for most. You'd be a lot more proficient if you stuck to 1 weapon and actually got to know it.

I fortunate in that I can shoot from my deck to 700yds year around and to a mile about 8 months out of the year. I would not hesitate to shoot a deer/elk out to about 700 yds WITH THE APPROPRIATE CONDITIONS. I practice well beyond that (1000+)often. I try and put 500+ rounds down range each year. That's not even 2 rounds per day guys! I know a lot of guys who do not have access to a range like i do say they put 1k+ down range. I know this is complete BS, that's a ton of rounds and knowing these guys and what they do for a living, simply dont have the time, and theyd be a lot better shots if that were actually true. These are also the same guys who insist on shooting a big magnum of some sort.

That said, the furthest elk i'v ever shot was 480yds. My antelope was not more than 150 this year, Close enough i didn't have to range it. The whitetails i shot this year were 288, 176, 406, and 542. All one shot kills.


Practice and know your limitations guys!

 

[Bambistew]

You can always tell the guys that are trying to impress you with their long range shooting, or are trying to justify their ability... They will tell you the exact yardage of the shot.

If you're comfortable and capable, have at it. For me the most memorable hunts, where within 150 yards and 95% of the animals I've killed where within 250. Long range shooting seems to be the easy way out, IMO. Seems these days, that hunters are far more worried about punching a tag than the hunt itself. Its ok if they get away.

 

[ida homer]

Using the old 30-06 I received when my dad died, I had a 600 yard opportunity at the biggest bull I'd ever seen. I had told my hunting partner (my son) that I was good to 300 yards and we just couldn't cross the canyon and get any closer. Watched that bull surrounded by his herd of cows for a good hour and then moved on. Later that day we closed to 334 yards on another nice bull. I wasn't a good enough hunter to get any closer. The boy said, "We let this one go too, right dad?"

This is why I practice at further distances. Hunting big country out west, you quickly realize how handicapped you can be (not always) with a 300 yard max range. It's big country. Most canyons are way further across than 300 yards!

When a 330 bull or a 180 buck walks out at 450 yards at very last light, I don't want to miss out on that opportunity because I'm not good enough. Because 450 yard is really not that far, it's not. So I practiced and made that distance a lay-up for myself.

I remember when 200 yards felt far and a milk jug looked small through the scope at that range. A milk jug looks huge now. An elk looks like a bus at 450 yards through my scope now. Vitals on an elk can be as large as 12" x 18" roughly, that's a big target. It's all about practice and confidence.

Some of these guys on Randy's show and other shows shouldn't be shooting past 200 yards. 400-450 yards is a lay-up for me. 600 yards is a lay-up for my buddies dad. To each their own. I'd bet the house on some of these serious long range guys at 600 yards over some of these guests on the TV shows at 300 yards.

It's all about how committed you are to precision shooting and knowing your limits. I really enjoy getting close, my 2 favorite kills are bulls with my rifle at archery distances. But I also want to know I have the ability, when given a once in a lifetime opportunity at last light.