What's up with the lighted nock deal?

[HSi-ESi]

Buzz I see you used Montana as an example. What archery technology is Montana allowing that is causing all the problems you mentioned?

I'll play here - only because I am a MT Resident - and back in the archery game.

I have a corporate gig where I work 50-70 hour weeks. I have a young family - so my free time isn't spent on my hobbies (mainly, hunting). So I have limited time to hunt - where my primary focus is to bring home meat.

I have punched my elk tag every year since 1992 - except for 2009 (my daughter was born during that hunting season). Since 2001 my primary focus is rifle season - higher success rate with lower time spent in the field punching my tag. Right now, I'm hunting maybe 10 days per year. But I bring home the same amount of meat (1 elk plus 1-3 deer per year).

I was planning on getting back into bow-hunting in the next couple of years - the kids are getting to the point where family time can be hunting time (very excited about that by the way). I prefer traditional bow-hunting (I like instinctive shooting). But with the demands on my time - modern equipment with sights and a release - make it easy for me to enjoy both seasons.

So, if I had to give up these technological advantages to hunt in bow season - right now I'd have to give up bow hunting. I'm sure that there are others out there in my shoes. There would be less of us in the woods hunting. Less people putting in for tags would make it easier for guys to get tags.

Regardless of those things - even if luminoc's were legal in MT's bow-hunting season - I wouldn't be using them. And my argument there would only be on heuristic grounds - but I'll save that for another post.

 

[spook12]

Buzz I can buy everything your selling,but you've gotta admit that where the old leadership in P&Y chose to draw the line makes them look silly. I just can't force myself to join the fight on the ground that's been staked out. If the terrain changes to a more defensible position,count me in.
To draw the line at lighted nocks after giving in to,wheels and cams,aluminum and carbon shafts,Fiber optics,mechanical heads,range finders,fall away rest,releases,etc. makes for a very hard sell to anyone with any common sense.

There's no doubt in my mind that a very serious discussion's going to have to take place about what gear will be legal if archery seasons are to remain as liberal as they have been. However to start that conversation with lighted nocks seems a bit ridiculous at best and as this thread shows just muddys the water.

 

[Straight Arrow]

We, as hunters, too often are debating the smaller issues related to hunting and wildlife. We tend to forget the other 98% of the voting and taxpaying population that gets to weigh in on our issues.
The reality is that the non-hunters see the technological advantages in bow hunting, rifle hunting, black powder hunting, and other hunting as unnecessary conveniences that have degraded the legacy of hunting and diminished the very reason that the non-hunter might support it on our behalf.

Lighted nocks, gps tracking, long range sniper scopes, ever evolving conveniences to hunting are viewed negatively and someday will result in that huge segment of the population deciding to reduce our opportunities to hunt. You have the right to believe whatever you care to ... but in my opinion, it boils down to your own personal selfishness and wanting it easier and easier to be successful. When it comes back to bite you, you will undoubtedly blame it on something or someone else, but it will be this shortsightedness that is the root cause. It is futile to argue with your personal opinion, but it is appropriate to attempt to persuade you to look at your personal motivation and basic attitudes.

 

[Ben Lamb]

We, as hunters, too often are debating the smaller issues related to hunting and wildlife. We tend to forget the other 98% of the voting and taxpaying population that gets to weigh in on our issues.
The reality is that the non-hunters see the technological advantages in bow hunting, rifle hunting, black powder hunting, and other hunting as unnecessary conveniences that have degraded the legacy of hunting and diminished the very reason that the non-hunter might support it on our behalf.

Lighted nocks, gps tracking, long range sniper scopes, ever evolving conveniences to hunting are viewed negatively and someday will result in that huge segment of the population deciding to reduce our opportunities to hunt. You have the right to believe whatever you care to ... but in my opinion, it boils down to your own personal selfishness and wanting it easier and easier to be successful. When it comes back to bite you, you will undoubtedly blame it on something or someone else, but it will be this shortsightedness that is the root cause. It is futile to argue with your personal opinion, but it is appropriate to attempt to persuade you to look at your personal motivation and basic attitudes.

Amen.

 

[Zach]

Crossbows anyone?

 

[Straight Arrow]

Crossbows anyone?

Only with approval of low light night vision goggles and laser-guided, long range, illuminated, heat-seeking ballistic bolts.

 

[roadhunter]

Roadhunter,

Montana drew a line with lighted nocks, no gps trackers on arrows, no lighted sights, etc.. Its called being "pro-active" and trying to stay one step ahead of the technology so they can "stop the bleeding" of shortened seasons and further limits on opportunity. Its also a way to try to keep what seasons and opportunities they currently have. They're feeling pressure from the Department as well as rifle hunters over the numbers of elk, in particular bull elk, that are being taken.

Archery technology that MT didnt get in front of a long time ago (a combination of items...now for the 13th time) is what has caused the decreased opportunities. No question.

The reason for having more elk is due to favorable habitat, elk harboring (earlier and more often thanks to archery pressure), favorable weather, elk increasing in areas that didnt have elk, etc.

One would think with MORE elk that we'd be seeing more archery opportunity, but thats just not the case. There was more opportunity in the past, and less now, even though elk cover more of Montana and at higher numbers.

Just to set the facts straight, lighted nocks are allowed in places in Montana and so are crossbows.

Buzz,

You can pretend that you have told me over and over but you still have not provided 1 example of a state who has had to make drastic changes to archery seasons because of lighted knocks. I've asked you 10+ times and you still can't come up with 1 state. In fact you keep giving examples of states who don't allow these things like Montana which makes no sense..


As far as Montana what specifically are you even talking about as far as technology that MT "did not get in front of" that is now causing your seasons to be shortened? I mean if we are not talking crossbows or lighted knocks then what technology do you think is the problem?

If you could show me 1 state who has legalized lighted knocks and then experienced a huge rise in harvest numbers to a point where the season has to be drastically changed I would probably start to agree with you. The problem is that I can't seem to find even 1 example of this but I can find numerous examples of states who allow these things yet nothing changed as far as harvest #'s or season dates. Basically everything I can find shows no real increase in harvest #'s from lighted knocks or crossbows being legalized.

To some degree I agree with you that technology has negatively effected hunting but I simply can't find any proof specifically to lighted knocks. I really can't even find any data to support crossbows drastically changing harvest #'s. I was actually surprised that legalizing crossbows did not have much of an effect on harvest #'s here in Nebraska. I was just sure that they would have increased harvest #'s and the deer or antelope season would be shortened but the harvest #'s did not change much and the seasons did not change at all. It's easy to try to find a scapegoat when things change but I simply can't find much of any information that lighted knocks or crossbows have changed things like you say they have or I thought they would.

From my perspective the interest in long range shooting has probably caused more harm to hunting than anything else. Suddenly people are going from shooting 2-3 hundred yards to shooting 500+. That is a drastic change that I could see leading to more unethical shots being taken by people who are not qualified to shoot at that range. But I don't think CDS dials and low BC bullets should be banned either.

 

[Straight Arrow]

...you have told me over and over but you still have not provided 1 example of a state who has had to make drastic changes to archery seasons because of lighted knocks...

For those of us chronologically challenged HT's who listen to long-play music vinyl records, it's referred to as "stuck needle." Time to change tracks and tacts.

 

[roadhunter]

Archery technology that MT didnt get in front of a long time ago (a combination of items...now for the 13th time) is what has caused the decreased opportunities. No question.

.

Specifically what "archery technology items" do you believe casued the decreased archery hunting opportunities in Montana?

 

[Redwood]

Archery is without question one of the fastest growing aspects of outdoor recreation. Why, bows are more readily available with more options and they are easier to "master". Archery has been glorified to youth through advertisements and medias such as movies and video games. Massive amounts of money are spent on advertisements and the internet and social medias held to propogate this. But above all, hunting opportunities with firearms are getting more and more difficult. Throughout the country, if you bow hunt you have more time in the field. You get into areas that you otherwise would not get into. Technology weighs in on the ease of use, but that is across the board in all outdoor activities. The main issue is and will continue to be, supple and demand of animals. More and more people are taking to the field, not percentage but total number, and the management strategies often are behind the ball. Couple that with natural fluxs in numbers due to disease etc, and you end up with mt's deer herd. Technology is not the problem, improper management is the problem.

 

[Devil Diver Down]

I do not think that the reduced opportunity in AZ is directly attributable to lighted knocks. I think it is directly attributable to decreased water availability for game and vegetation.

FIFY. I swear I'm not trying to confuse the issue and even debated to jump back into the discussion, but pretty much any AZGFD person would tell you that water is the driving force behind reduced opportunity and population in AZ. My guess (without looking) is that success numbers for deer are down in AZ.

There's no doubt - well, in most people's minds - that improved technology has made the sport easier, regardless of weapon. More hunters in the field = more dead animals. Easier to accurately shoot equipment = more dead animals. Technology also makes possible bringing the conveniences of home which probably leads to more days in the field, etc.

 

[Biscuit Hunter]

FIFY. I swear I'm not trying to confuse the issue and even debated to jump back into the discussion, but pretty much any AZGFD person would tell you that water is the driving force behind reduced opportunity and population in AZ. My guess (without looking) is that success numbers for deer are down in AZ.

Except that deer population numbers are not what most directly impact archery opportunity. It's all about how many deer archers kill in relation to the total harvest. If archers account for more than 20% of the total harvest for a unit, their opportunity is reduced in that unit. That's the trade off for OTC tags good for most any unit in the state, long seasons, and the ability to hunt the rut. As more archers take to the field, and are successful in harvesting deer, they run the risk of losing opportunity. First to go seems to be the rut hunts, followed by going to the draw.

 

[spook12]

FIFY Technology also makes possible bringing the conveniences of home which probably leads to more days in the field, etc.

Excellent point.

 

[dan.kirkpatrick]

it all depends on the particular state,,some states want you to find your game after the shot,some dont.

 

[Straight Arrow]

it all depends on the particular state,,some states want you to find your game after the shot,some dont.

Seriously?!!!!

 

[JWP58]

Man all this technology talk could wear a guy out.

How do we all feel about those fancy high powered telescopic sights the youngsters are using on their whizbangmagnum rifles? By Gawd they can shoot out to 800yds at live game.....we needs to be settin' rules concerning such use of the ballistical witchery!!!!

Whats fair is fare! I say outlaw everything but a stick bow and musket......flint stone arrowheads and round lead balls fer ever'one!!!!

 

[BigRack]

Seriously?!!!!

Conservationists and ethical hunters should want to use a piece of equipment that helps find shot game but does not help shoot the game.

 

[shoots-straight]

Man all this technology talk could wear a guy out.

How do we all feel about those fancy high powered telescopic sights the youngsters are using on their whizbangmagnum rifles? By Gawd they can shoot out to 800yds at live game.....we needs to be settin' rules concerning such use of the ballistical witchery!!!!

Whats fair is fare! I say outlaw everything but a stick bow and musket......flint stone arrowheads and round lead balls fer ever'one!!!!

As technology advances, and it becomes less about hunting and more about shooting, then seasons will be lost. So does it matter that more people get involved but for a shorter time frame? If your business is making money off of it, then yes that's alright.

 

[JohnCushman]

it all depends on the particular state,,some states want you to find your game after the shot,some dont.

huh?

 

[MKotur325]

This is gonna get interesting

Good Call John. This got interesting.