What's up with the lighted nock deal?

[mdunc8]

I'm probably going to regret making this comparison, but here we go...

Despite the obvious ethical, moral, and constitutional differences, I find advances in hunting technology similar to the whole gun control debate as well as hunting/trapping in general. While I don't think lighted nocks alone make any difference in the number of elk killed each year, nor will I ever be trapper, and I see no reason why anyone needs/wants a 40 round clip for a semi-automatic rifle, at some point you have to stand your ground. Because if you don't, eventually we'll have bows that shoot heat-seeking arrows several hundred yards at 1,500 fps, unless the anti-hunting crowd is successful at doing away with trapping and then eventually all hunting unless the anti-gun crowd eventually gains enough support to do away with banana clips as well as anything other than a single shot firearm. While each baby step doesn't amount to much in and of itself, it doesn't take long before my kid is tumbling down the stairs.

 

[roadhunter]

BuzzH---It would seem that the person you're trying to "splain" things to has a little bit of a reading comprehension problem!

Yea,
He tells us how lighted knocks are to blame for all these changes to archery seasons then gives examples of states where lighted knocks are not even legal in the first place. How exactly does that make sense?

 

[Nameless Range]

Buzz:

Again...for the 10th time. Its a COMBINATION of technology (all those things that I listed that you continue to ignore) that has impacted archery hunting opportunities

roadhunter:

What you need to do is show a state where after allowing lighted knocks experiences a huge increase in harvest %

Combination : "1.mixture: an association of different things or factors, or the act of mixing them"

Thus the comprehension failure

 

[BuzzH]

Roadhunter,

Its about ALL TECHNOLOGY...for the 11th time.

I dont need to "show" anything...technology is, has, and will continue to limit archery seasons and archery opportunities.

I've already given you several examples. The lighted nock is just another item on the LONG LIST of chit that you can hook on a mechanical dowel flinging device to make it easier to shoot farther and more efficiently.

If lighted nocks were of no significance, there wouldnt even be a discussion. But based on the absolute chit storm that P&Y just went through, the fact that several states have banned them, etc. leads anyone with a fraction of a firing brain cell to believe, there is an "issue" here.

I will agree that the lighted nock may just be the catalyst, right at the moment, for the broader issue of archery technology in general. Which, for 100% fact, is leading to shorter archery seasons, less opportunity, etc. for those that choose to archery hunt.

I flat DO NOT have the same archery hunting opportunities in MT and WY that I did 15-20 years ago...FACT.

 

[Oak]

I admit I haven't read all of these posts....just skimmed a bit to see what you were discussing. I can tell you that there are rumblings in CO about the pressure and increased harvest from unlimited archery elk hunting, and I wouldn't be surprised to see in the next year or two a consideration to put a limit on archery. You can't deny that the reason for the explosion of interest in archery hunting the last 10 years is tied directly to technology. No one piece of tech can be blamed, but the combination of things that allows anyone to pick up a bow and be proficient to 50-60 yards in a matter of hours cannot be denied.

 

[Wapiti Warrior]

Lets go back to recurves and long bows, then see how many bow hunters there are and what that would do to the seasons??
I picked up my compound bow the other day with out shooting all winter and was hitting a pie plate at 60 yards. I know for a fact I can't do that with my long bow, and would never be able to be that good unless I practiced year round religiously.

John

 

[spook12]

I picked up my compound bow the other day with out shooting all winter and was hitting a pie plate at 60 yards.

John

Take those lighted nocks off your arrows and those groups will loosen right up.

 

[spook12]

No one piece of tech can be blamed, but the combination of things that allows anyone to pick up a bow and be proficient to 50-60 yards in a matter of hours cannot be denied.

Truer words were never spoken....................................However these nocks don't fit the criteria IMO.

 

[noharleyyet]

Take those lighted nocks off your arrows and this group will loosen right up.

Changed it for you spook.

 

[Biscuit Hunter]

Buzz,

You listed states that don't allow technology such as lighted knocks.

To my knowledge, lighted knocks have always been allowed in AZ.

I think we are the perfect example of a state where increased success rates by OTC archery hunters reduces their opportunity. You can add Unit 29 to the list from the article that Buzz linked. That unit lost it's December season a year or two ago, and has now had it's January 2015 season cut from month long to the 1st-11th. Down here, archery opportunity is directly tied to success rate. Whether it's a function of technology or not, the more deer that archery hunters kill, the more opportunity they will lose.

 

[roadhunter]

Roadhunter,

Its about ALL TECHNOLOGY...for the 11th time.

I dont need to "show" anything...technology is, has, and will continue to limit archery seasons and archery opportunities.

I've already given you several examples. The lighted nock is just another item on the LONG LIST of chit that you can hook on a mechanical dowel flinging device to make it easier to shoot farther and more efficiently.

If lighted nocks were of no significance, there wouldnt even be a discussion. But based on the absolute chit storm that P&Y just went through, the fact that several states have banned them, etc. leads anyone with a fraction of a firing brain cell to believe, there is an "issue" here.

I will agree that the lighted nock may just be the catalyst, right at the moment, for the broader issue of archery technology in general. Which, for 100% fact, is leading to shorter archery seasons, less opportunity, etc. for those that choose to archery hunt.

I flat DO NOT have the same archery hunting opportunities in MT and WY that I did 15-20 years ago...FACT.

Actually if you want to prove your point you do need to show at least 1 example of lighted knocks leading to shortened seasons. So far you have provided nothing to back your opinion up.

OTOH I have. For example I have hunted in 4 states (WY, KS, OK, and NE) who allow the use of some modern technology. Since they have been allowed I have not seen any major changes in the season length or structure. I have also not seen any major increase in harvest% which would cause season changes to be necessary. So there are 4 states who have allowed technology and have not had seasons or opportunity lost. That proves my point.

If anything the articles you provided showed that states (Idaho, AZ, Co, and MT) who don't allow some modern technology were having to make changes to seasons while states (OK, KS, NE, and WY) who do allow more technology were not making changes. Kinda backfired on you didn't it. All they proved was that changes will need to be made to seasons even for states who don't allow modern technology such as lighted knocks or crossbows.

So I think it is safe to assume that there Is no state who after legalizing lighted knocks was forced to make drastic changes to archery season. Glad we got that straight. So clearly there is no proof to back up your "sky is falling" opinion about lighted knocks.

You tried to show several examples of states who made changes to archery season but none had anything to do with lighted knocks. None of the articles even mention lighted knocks since they are not legal in the states you used as an example. If you do come up with a state who has had to make drastic changes to archery season after legalizing lighted knocks I would love to see it.

P&Y approved them so obviously they figured out that there was no advantage gained by using knocks nor was there any proof that by allowing lighted knocks there would be less opportunity for hunters. If what you say is true a group like P&Y would never approve the use of lighted knocks. But they did so obviously they dont' see them as a threat like you seem to.

Technology is advancing all types of hunting, not just bowhunting.

You do not have the same bow hunting opportunities that you did 20 years ago. You also dont' have the same rifle hunting opportunities that you did 20 years ago. Heck when I was a kid it only took my parents a few years to draw sheep tags in Wyoming, now it takes residents 12+ years. Is that because of lighted knocks? Crossbows? Rangefinders? Hell no. Sometimes seasons and opportunity changes and it has nothing to do with technology.

Lets blame the actual factors that contribute to less hunting opportunity and changes to hunting seasons and tags such as increased hunter #'s, EHD, Deer/Elk numbers being down, winter kill, blue tongue, etc and not blame factors such as lighted knocks which clearly have little or nothing to to do with hunting opportunity.

 

[Zach]

,snip. No one piece of tech can be blamed, but the combination of things that allows anyone to pick up a bow and be proficient to 50-60 yards in a matter of hours cannot be denied.

I must be doing something wrong, I'm still working on my 40+ yd accuracy and consistency.

 

[roadhunter]

To my knowledge, lighted knocks have always been allowed in AZ.

I think we are the perfect example of a state where increased success rates by OTC archery hunters reduces their opportunity. You can add Unit 29 to the list from the article that Buzz linked. That unit lost it's December season a year or two ago, and has now had it's January 2015 season cut from month long to the 1st-11th. Down here, archery opportunity is directly tied to success rate. Whether it's a function of technology or not, the more deer that archery hunters kill, the more opportunity they will lose.

So you are of the opinion that lighted knocks increased success rates drastically and caused some areas to be closed down to OTC hunting in AZ?

You really think that was all due to lighted knocks?

I guess I don't understand how lighted knocks can drastically increase harvest numbers. They do not make you shoot tighter groups, they don't make you more accurate at longer ranges. All they do is allow you to see where your arrow went.

 

[BuzzH]

Actually if you want to prove your point you do need to show at least 1 example of lighted knocks leading to shortened seasons. So far you have provided nothing to back your opinion up.

Its not about just nocks, now for the 12th time.

I might suggest:

OTOH I have. For example I have hunted in 4 states (WY, KS, OK, and NE) who allow the use of crossbows. Since they have been allowed I have not seen any major changes in the season length or structure. I have also not seen any major increase in harvest% which would cause season changes to be necessary. So there are 4 states who have allowed technology and have not had seasons or opportunity lost. That proves my point.

Then you arent paying attention. Just in the last six months Wyoming archery hunters are being asked a lot of questions about their season lengths. They also tried to take 10% of the available quota of all big-game tags and make them archery only (which was soundly defeated). Archery elk hunters in WY are trying to implement more type-9 tags to increase their drawing odds, also being met with fierce opposition. Matter of fact, myself and several other Casper area hunters (archery hunters) testified against increasing type-9 tags at the last Commission meeting. Some of the existing type-9 archery tags are as hard, if not harder to draw, than the type-1 tags. The archery only portion of the bear seasons near Casper were also eliminated. In several conversations I've had with representatives of Bow Hunters of Wyoming, they are really concerned that technology is going to negatively impact archery opportunities in WY. But, hey, what would BOW know about archery related issues (pun there)?

If anything the articles you provided showed that states (Idaho, AZ, Co, and MT) who don't allow some modern technology were having to make changes to seasons while states (OK, KS, NE, and WY) who do allow more technology were not making changes.

I already pointed out that WY has and is continuing to restrict archery only portions of the seasons. MT, AZ, and CO have also seen the same thing due to increases in technology and will see more in the future. MT, ID, AZ and CO do allow lots of new technology, exactly whey they've had to adjust seasons. Just because some states havent had to make changes YET, doesnt mean they wont be seeing some real soon.

P&Y approved them so obviously they figured out that there was no advantage gained by using knocks nor was there any proof that by allowing lighted knocks there would be less opportunity for hunters. If what you say is true a group like P&Y would never approve the use of lighted knocks. But they did so obviously they dont' see them as a threat like you seem to.

Pope and Young has caved to technology and is selling out the intent of the sport. They've lowered their requirements twice in the last decade by allowing 80% letoff, now they allow cameras on the bow and lighted nocks. There is fierce debate amoung the PY leadership, as well as the membership at large, over lighted nocks as well as technology in general. Pope and Young sold its soul to advertising, technology, and industry a long time ago. All they have to do to "approve" of lighted nocks is to fire the old leadership (which they did), and appoint new leadership that have no problem with lighted nocks (which they also did). Politics 101 with ZERO concern for the future of archery, archery seasons or wildlife.

Lets blame the actual factors that contribute to less hunting opportunity and changes to hunting seasons and tags such as increased hunter #'s, EHD, Deer/Elk numbers being down, winter kill, blue tongue, etc and not blame factors such as lighted knocks which clearly have little or nothing to to do with hunting opportunity.

Yeah, lets do that. The reason that archery hunters are losing opportunity is because of technology. As Oak pointed out, as I've pointed out, and several others have as well. Elk numbers are not "down" in any state, and are at much higher populations, and over objective in nearly all of CO, WY, UT, NM, AZ, MT, etc. Yet, we're still seeing more restrictions in season length, choose your weapon, draws instead of OTC opportunities, etc. in all of those states.

I used to be able to shoot up to 6 buck deer of either species in Montana with a bow, could hunt the entire Missouri River breaks with nothing but a general elk tag and archery stamp (when there were wayyy less elk than now), could take nearly unlimited doe whitetails, etc.

Cant do any of that anymore.

The reason more people bowhunt is also a function of the technology that makes it easier and eaiser to shoot mechanical dowel flinging devices.

 

[Biscuit Hunter]

So you are of the opinion that lighted knocks increased success rates drastically and caused some areas to be closed down to OTC hunting in AZ?

You really think that was all due to lighted knocks?

I guess I don't understand how lighted knocks can drastically increase harvest numbers. They do not make you shoot tighter groups, they don't make you more accurate at longer ranges. All they do is allow you to see where your arrow went.

I do not think that the reduced opportunity in AZ is directly attributable to lighted knocks. I think it is directly attributable to increased success rates. I understand the point about lighted knocks not helping archers to shoot better groups, but my questions about their use have nothing to do with shooting groups. I question how their use will affect archers decisions in the field. Will they take a shot with a lighted knock that they wouldn't without, due to range, ambient light conditions, etc, figuring that they will at least know if they hit the deer or not? Will they fling more arrows in general, knowing that those expensive arrows will be easy to find? This could very well result in more deer being killed, and less opportunity for archers.

 

[BuzzH]

Biscuit Hunter,

Exactly the point, and thank you.

When was the last time you saw an advertisement for a lighted nock that showed a shot taken in full sunlight from ten yards?

Lots of commercials are low light situations and shooting 100 yards to show you how effective their product is.

 

[roadhunter]

This is classic Buzz. Telling everyone how stupid they are because they dont' agree with his opinion. "1 firing brain cell" comments and personal insults. Gotta love it.

Actually it is about knocks, see the OP. That is what we are discussing.

Buzz I see you used Montana as an example. What archery technology is Montana allowing that is causing all the problems you mentioned?

That is the problem with your argument, you keep using examples of states who don't allow the technology you seem to believe is causing the problems. You bring up Montana but Montana does not allow lighted knocks or crossbows. So you end up not making any sense.

So if we have more elk now than we did 20 years ago but we have less hunting opportunity? Is technology to blame for having elk so far above objective? On one had you say technology is killing all the elk so hunters have less opportunity and then you turn around and say elk numbers are "up" and over objective in every state. It can't be both ways, so which is it?

At this point there has not been 1 piece of information that proves lighted knocks have changed any hunting opportunities in any state. Considering how many states allow lighted knocks and how there is not any information that proves lighted knocks lead to increased harvest numbers It
is pretty safe to say that lighted knocks do not have any drastic effect on archery hunting success rates or opportunities for bow hunters. But most of us knew that already.

 

[JohnCushman]

bababooey

 

[roadhunter]

I do not think that the reduced opportunity in AZ is directly attributable to lighted knocks. I think it is directly attributable to increased success rates. QUOTE]

Glad we got that straight.

So what do you believe is the primary reason for increased success rates in AZ?

 

[BuzzH]

Roadhunter,

Montana drew a line with lighted nocks, no gps trackers on arrows, no lighted sights, etc.. Its called being "pro-active" and trying to stay one step ahead of the technology so they can "stop the bleeding" of shortened seasons and further limits on opportunity. Its also a way to try to keep what seasons and opportunities they currently have. They're feeling pressure from the Department as well as rifle hunters over the numbers of elk, in particular bull elk, that are being taken.

Archery technology that MT didnt get in front of a long time ago (a combination of items...now for the 13th time) is what has caused the decreased opportunities. No question.

The reason for having more elk is due to favorable habitat, elk harboring (earlier and more often thanks to archery pressure), favorable weather, elk increasing in areas that didnt have elk, etc.

One would think with MORE elk that we'd be seeing more archery opportunity, but thats just not the case. There was more opportunity in the past, and less now, even though elk cover more of Montana and at higher numbers.

Just to set the facts straight, lighted nocks are allowed in places in Montana and so are crossbows.