Use Promo Code Randy for 20% off OutdoorClass

What I learned about CWD after 17 years of direct involvement

Stay Sharp

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
605
Location
Wisconsin
After 17 years of CWD here in WI and me being an avid deer hunter during that time, Ive seen it all in my state in regards to the alerts/notices/management prescriptions, etc from the receiving end (the hunter) Also (in 2007) I was commissioned by the (then) secretary of the DNR to sit on our state's CWD stakeholders advisory group to address and plot out the CWD management plan and have met with and talked to the scientists and researchers at the forefront of CWD research and having continuing to keep abreast of and following all the CWD research and news and science and research papers since then AND as a hunter of 45 years, I can tell you that in fact the solution to CWD (if such a thing exists and I contend it does not) WILL NOT be resolved because of anybody in blaze orange or camouflage as we CANNOT hunt or shoot our way to a CWD solution. Its simply not possible.

The people that will actually have an impact on CWD will be wearing white lab coats. Hunters are not a vector, nor is baiting/feeding. Baiting and feeding DID NOT start CWD nor will its absence stop/halt/slow the spread/reduce instances of CWD and there is not a single management prescription your state game agency will enact that will stop CWD nor any legislative act that will stop CWD or reduce its spread. We hold these truths to be self evident. Ive been studying this via research papers for 12 years.

By the time CWD prevalence is high enough to be detected in free ranging herds via random sampling, the environment the animals live in contains the CWD prions. The infected soil is 700% more ineffective than is deer to deer contact. That fact was presented to our group back in 2007.


Plants growing in that prion infected soils then uptake the infectious agent and host animals eat the plants and the soil meaning that an environmental reservoir exists that no longer requires infected host animals to spread CWD.


Knowing this about the soil and the plant uptake should give bait plotters (food plotters) pause, but it wont.

Some thought it a good idea to attempt to eradicate the disease by eradicating the deer. Even if you hire an occupying force to poison and shoot every single deer (which is not possible), and keep the landscape free of deer for a decade, new deer introduced to an area with an environmental reservoir of infectious agent, the new deer that are susceptible to infection (and not all deer are based in their genotype) that would be introduced to the area will eventually become infected. Even if your state makes as its goal to kill 100% of the deer in the infected area, it WILL NOT stop CWD. Your state knows this.

In the ranking of those that can or will have an impact on solving CWD. Hunters rank last so all management prescriptions placed on them are merely feel good measures tricking the public into thinking we are doing something because doing nothing is unacceptable and humans are arrogant enough to think they have a solution for everything including stopping CWD in Wild free ranging herds. The most effect and any long term solution will come from guys in white lab coats (if this ever happens at all). Lawmakers and your state game agency are and will be ineffective and they will lash out wildly with prescriptions that will actually be counter to their goals. They will think they are impactful and they may even mean well but your game commission and legislators will overreact and make the situation worse. It happens in nearly every state and there is no penalty for them acting poorly as they can fall back on "we are doing something" and "We are doing our best." and "we are acting in the best interest of the herd" There is no accountability for them getting it terribly wrong (and they will) As we found in WI, the management prescriptions levied on hunters and deer were worse for deer and deer hunting than CWD could ever be. Killing healthy deer to save the deer has been demonstrated folly as well as destroying the relationship between hunters and game agencies which lingers longer than CWD in the soil

But why think at the state wide level? Try to stop/cure CWD at the county or management unit level. Lets pick an area with enough CWD infected animals that it shows up in random testing. By this time the soil and plants have the infected environmental reservoir but magically, your state is able to kill every deer in that zone and keep out every new intruding deer. But they failed because they didnt also kill and keep out every crow, coyote and wolf and mole and vole that can transmit the infectious agent without becoming infected themselves. Then you would also need to have mandatory vehicle tire wash stations so infected soils could not be carried into and out of this zone. Oh and they will have to stop the wind as well since dust storms can carry infected soil.

Are you still thinking your state game agency or your legislature can stop/halt CWD???

I could go on regarding the impact of CWD on the human population and livestock but you already know how CWD IS NOT affecting them despite continual challenges in the lab with ovidized, cerviedized, bovinized and humanized transgenic mice and has been for years and not just in the USA. The species barrier has been and continues to be challenged as well as 50+ years of humans consuming infected meat with no increase of VCJD in areas with CWD in game animals vs VCJD in areas with no CWD. To date there have been only 4 cases of VJCD in the USA and none related to deer or elk or CWD.

 
Now that is a mouthful!

I've never thought slaughtering every deer within miles was the solution for this.
 
Hi. First off, thank you for your post, and hello from a fellow Wisconsin resident who cares a lot about CWD and is worried about its long-term effects on our deer herds and hunting tradition.

A few comments:

-You likely know more about this than I do, so I am coming from a position of a student interested in a solution, not critic, so please bear that in mind.

-If I understand you correctly:

-Hunters are not a vector, and neither is baiting / feeding

-The hunter piece is probably less controversial (besides transmission of brain/spinal matters from affected areas to non-affected areas), but would you mind providing evidence for why baiting/feeding is not? Per the CDC, “Scientists believe CWD proteins (prions) likely spread between animals through body fluids like feces, saliva, blood, or urine, either through direct contact or indirectly through environmental contamination of soil, food or water”. It’s unclear to me from what you posted why baiting/feeding wouldn’t encourage transmission.

-A minor point to clarify: you state that “The infected soil is 700% more ineffective than is deer to deer contact.” I think you mean that the infected soil is 700% more effective than is deer to deer contact, based on review of the link (let me know if I am misreading).

-The comment that hunters can’t shoot their way to a CWD solution is an obvious red herring. I don’t think any informed people think that way. The question is whether (by concentrating higher kill percentages in highly affected areas), we can slow the spread of CWD. This remains unaddressed in your statement, but on the face of it, seems plausible.

-While I agree that people wearing white lab coats are more likely to come up with a solution than people wearing camo, it creates a false dichotomy and encourages inaction on the behalf of people (including many in this forum) who actively want to be a part of the solution. The truth is that many people with white lab coats struggle obtaining funding for things that need solutions, and that hunters can be advocates, as they are the primary ‘consumers’ of the resource, and therefore, those most likely to bend public/legislative/financial resources towards the white lab coats who can provide a solution. So, with that said, can you provide any positive suggestions on what the hunting community can do to assist in moving things toward a solution?

Thank you.
 
Hi. First off, thank you for your post, and hello from a fellow Wisconsin resident who cares a lot about CWD and is worried about its long-term effects on our deer herds and hunting tradition.

A few comments:

-You likely know more about this than I do, so I am coming from a position of a student interested in a solution, not critic, so please bear that in mind.

-If I understand you correctly:

-Hunters are not a vector, and neither is baiting / feeding

-The hunter piece is probably less controversial (besides transmission of brain/spinal matters from affected areas to non-affected areas), but would you mind providing evidence for why baiting/feeding is not? Per the CDC, “Scientists believe CWD proteins (prions) likely spread between animals through body fluids like feces, saliva, blood, or urine, either through direct contact or indirectly through environmental contamination of soil, food or water”. It’s unclear to me from what you posted why baiting/feeding wouldn’t encourage transmission.

Grooming, birthings, mating, feces, urine, saliva, decomposition due to wounding losses, car kills, predation, natural death, ag crops causing congregation, mast trees causing congregation, winter yarding causing congregation all take place 24/7/365 and contribute to infected deer shedding prions into the environment and eclipse the short term window of baiting/feeding. Its a blip in the year. Baiting did not create CWD nor will a ban of it stop/halt/slow CWD. Its been proven in WI. In the counties with the highest CWD infection rate Baiting is banned for more than 15 years and is having no effect on stopping CWD yet in the part of WI that still allows baiting, CWD has not been found. Banning Baiting is a instant gratification (feel good) measure that tricks the public into thinking the State is taking action then its having zero impact AND SOME DATA SHOW CWD INCREASING WITHOUT BAIT (GASP). But bait piles have been replaced with bait plots which are in the same place year after year after year so congregate deer to the same soils.

-A minor point to clarify: you state that “The infected soil is 700% more ineffective than is deer to deer contact.” I think you mean that the infected soil is 700% more effective than is deer to deer contact, based on review of the link (let me know if I am misreading).

Thats the point I was making. Yes.

-The comment that hunters can’t shoot their way to a CWD solution is an obvious red herring. I don’t think any informed people think that way.

That was the WI Plan and looks like the MI plan. State agencies thought and think it can be shot away. That is why WI had "ERRADICATION zones" WI had DEZ (Deer Eradication Zones) Once the plan was slayed out to the public and a rebellion took place, they swapped the "D" of deer with "disease" . We laughed.

the question is whether (by concentrating higher kill percentages in highly affected areas), we can slow the spread of CWD. This remains unaddressed in your statement, but on the face of it, seems plausible.

Until you read the part about infected soils and plant uptake making infected deer no essential to spread.

-While I agree that people wearing white lab coats are more likely to come up with a solution than people wearing camo, it creates a false dichotomy and encourages inaction on the behalf of people (including many in this forum) who actively want to be a part of the solution.

Yes, human are arrogant and think we can solve this in a wild free ranging herd that migrates. We are funny like that.

the truth is that many people with white lab coats struggle obtaining funding for things that need solutions, and that hunters can be advocates, as they are the primary ‘consumers’ of the resource, and therefore, those most likely to bend public/legislative/financial resources towards the white lab coats who can provide a solution. So, with that said, can you provide any positive suggestions on what the hunting community can do to assist in moving things toward a solution?

Thank you.

Cervid farmers. They are the best friend of making progress in a solution to CWD. They are and will continue funding CWD research as it is their business. It effects their bottom line so like any high dollar business with a problem, they are working for a solution. Remember, this is a transmissible disease in a wild, free ranging and migrating population that sheds into the environment and that shedding boosts the infectious agent.
 
Last edited:
They've been killing them here in MO too in areas with positives.

In some cases they bait them... kinda ironic eh.

I am no expert on the subject but killing a pile of deer to hopefully save a few deer from being killed by a disease never made much sense to me.
 
Cervid farmers. They are the best friend of making progress in a solution to CWD. They are and will continue funding CWD research as it is their business. It effects their bottom line so like any high dollar business with a problem, they are working for a solution. Remember, this is a transmissible disease in a wild, free ranging and migrating population that sheds into the environment and that shedding boosts the infectious agent.
That sounds good on paper but I’m not sure it flies in the real world. The captive/domestic/shooter deer/elk world ships critters from facility to facility constantly and with no way to test a live animal. Escapes from fences certainly aren’t uncommon and reporting escapes seems to be something largely ignored, calls for double fencing in my state have been ignored or shot down as too costly and animals dying on facilities that are supposed to all be tested and reported often aren’t found in a timely manner Where I am it’s basically they are basically self regulated as they tend to have friends in high places.
 
Baiting did not create CWD nor will a ban of it stop/halt/slow CWD. Its been proven in WI. In the counties with the highest CWD infection rate Baiting is banned for more than 15 years and is having no effect on stopping CWD yet in the part of WI that still allows baiting, CWD has not been found. Banning Baiting is a instant gratification (feel good) measure that tricks the public into thinking the State is taking action then its having zero impact AND SOME DATA SHOW CWD INCREASING WITHOUT BAIT (GASP).
Source? Would be interested to see those data. Also, no one asserts that baiting causes CWD. It does increase contact rates among individual animals and increase opportunities for direct transmission. We see lots of increased transmission of all kinds of diseases among baited/fed populations. It’s well documented. Why would CWD be any different?


Until you read the part about infected soils and plant uptake making infected deer no essential to spread.
Until someone documents infected plants walking into the next county and shedding prions, the most likely scenario for the progressive geographic spread most commonly observed is still infected deer walking into the next county and shedding prions.


Yes, human are arrogant and think we can solve this
No argument here. Everyone is an expert on everything, particularly the things they understand the least.


Cervid farmers. They are the best friend of making progress in a solution to CWD.
They have been obstructionists from the beginning, and have been largely responsible for introductions in most states. Their interests are self-serving at best and any benefit to wild populations from their funding would be purely coincidental.
 
Source? Would be interested to see those data. Also, no one asserts that baiting causes CWD. It does increase contact rates among individual animals and increase opportunities for direct transmission. We see lots of increased transmission of all kinds of diseases among baited/fed populations. It’s well documented. Why would CWD be any different?

Again, its but a tiny blip in time compared to the very long list of ways deer interact and congregate, etc.


Until someone documents infected plants walking into the next county and shedding prions, the most likely scenario for the progressive geographic spread most commonly observed is still infected deer walking into the next county and shedding prions.

It actually moves by the truck load in small square and big square and round bales of hay. All over the country yet nobody bats an eye to the ton after ton that is dispersed nation wide and then passes through animals and then is shed into the ground..
 
It actually moves by the truck load in small square and big square and round bales of hay. All over the country yet nobody bats an eye to the ton after ton that is dispersed nation wide and then passes through animals and then is shed into the ground..

Again, source? Would be interested to see those data. Until then, it’s just wild conjecture like everyone else. Not something I’d hang my hat on.
 
But baiting!!!!!!!!!!
I always thought it was funny that most experts pointed to baiting/supplement feeding as a main contributor to the spread of it
 
But baiting!!!!!!!!!!
I always thought it was funny that most experts pointed to baiting/supplement feeding as a MAIN contributor to the spread of it


I dont know of a single "expert" that claimed it is a MAIN contributor to the spread of CWD. If they did they could be dismissed out of hand. partially because CWD exists in states where baiting is illegal.
 
I should know the answer to this, but will ask anyway.

Its my understanding that cwd that infects elk is a different strain of the disease than what infects deer...correct me if I'm wrong.

On that note, can say an elk with cwd infect a deer or vice versa?
 
So you are saying ( I think) that In order to save the village you destroyed the village... AND THEN WE ENDED UP WITH NO VILLAGE?? Holy smokes someone should tell the gubmint!

Funny how first thing they do is print limitless money (tags) then a year or three later say the first casualty of cwd is LARGE BUCKS/MATURE MALES, because suddenly they have none left in the population. Hmmmmm I wonder where they may have gone??? They were in the village and now they are not. Cant find the village, THE BIG BUCKS MUST HAVE DESTROYED THE VILLAGE!

solution Kill the big bucks, those village destroying sob's here WE CAN PRINT A TAG FOR THAT. So they do. I know we'll call this cute lil fella OPPORTUNITY, cause nobody can be against "opportunity" its like finding a politician against "freedom".
 
I should know the answer to this, but will ask anyway.

Its my understanding that cwd that infects elk is a different strain of the disease than what infects deer...correct me if I'm wrong.

On that note, can say an elk with cwd infect a deer or vice versa?

No, its the same thing. CWD in cervids, BSE (mad cow) in cattle, Scrapie in sheep, VCJD in humans (only 4 cases in the USA ever) and CJD in humans naturally occurring.

 
So you are saying ( I think) that In order to save the village you destroyed the village... AND THEN WE ENDED UP WITH NO VILLAGE?? Holy smokes someone should tell the gubmint!

Funny how first thing they do is print limitless money (tags) then a year or three later say the first casualty of cwd is LARGE BUCKS/MATURE MALES, because suddenly they have none left in the population. Hmmmmm I wonder where they may have gone??? They were in the village and now they are not. Cant find the village, THE BIG BUCKS MUST HAVE DESTROYED THE VILLAGE!

solution Kill the big bucks, those village destroying sob's here WE CAN PRINT A TAG FOR THAT. So they do. I know we'll call this cute lil fella OPPORTUNITY, cause nobody can be against "opportunity" its like finding a politician against "freedom".

some state agencies (like Wisconsin) made that mistake and then retracted. We are now in a test/monitor/track mode.

 
I should know the answer to this, but will ask anyway.

Its my understanding that cwd that infects elk is a different strain of the disease than what infects deer...correct me if I'm wrong.

On that note, can say an elk with cwd infect a deer or vice versa?

Yes, there are different strains due to very small differences in the deer vs elk gene that codes for the protein, but there is still a lot to figure out. To the best of my knowledge, the strains appear transmissible cross-species, but may result in differences in incubation periods, amplify differently in the body, and prolong or shorten disease course. Those new transgenic mouse models are enabling them to really start getting at some of these differences.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/25/12478
 
The unit I hunted deer in this year had a mandatory check for CWD if you were successful. Someone had pointed out that at the check station that the same tools used for taking samples, were used on every animal.
Will this give a false/positive test?
 
The unit I hunted deer in this year had a mandatory check for CWD if you were successful. Someone had pointed out that at the check station that the same tools used for taking samples, were used on every animal.
Will this give a false/positive test?

Doubtful that enough prions would be transferred on tools to trigger a positive test. There is a detection threshold below which the test just can’t detect the prions. Which is why it’s possible that a very early stage infected animal may result in a “negative” test.
 
Back
Top