Unreconcilable?

[Ben Lamb]

Those jobs are well under 20 an hour. Refineries you have to try to make less than 100k a year and the one I work at hasn't had lay offs in decades.
And your obsolescence argument is comparing apples to orange. Whale oil wasn't forced to go by the wayside due rabid enviros. Same story with coal. Coal is by far the best way to make electricity. It's going away due to politics.

Do the best with what you have, where you are. Doubtful anyone else in that area is paying a similar wage.

Whale oil was ditched thanks to Kerosene. That was all about market forces shifting. Coal is dying for a multitude of reasons, but it's the economics of nat gas that is doing that, much more so than enviros. It's cheaper, cleaner and easier to deal with.

 

[406dn]

Coal is by far the best way to make electricity.

I think, all things considered, hydro is the best way to make electricity. We have pretty well tapped the best sources, so little room for growth.

Hydro is subject to rainfall. Nuclear is incredibly expensive and fusion generation doesn't exist.

Coal is dependent on society accepting all of its pollution, from heavy metals, SO2, coal ash and CO2. Coal is on its way out as fuel for electricity production.

Also, double check the cost of producing electricity with nuclear... it is cheaper than coal. Its biggest drawback is what to do with spent fuel. That is a large political football to resolve.

 

[BWALKER77]

Do the best with what you have, where you are. Doubtful anyone else in that area is paying a similar wage.

Whale oil was ditched thanks to Kerosene. That was all about market forces shifting. Coal is dying for a multitude of reasons, but it's the economics of nat gas that is doing that, much more so than enviros. It's cheaper, cleaner and easier to deal with.

The economics of natural gas aren't so rosey right now. While it's a common leftists mantra tht natural gas beat out coal based on economics that simply isn't accurate. Only after a crazy amount of regulations where placed on the coal industry was gas competitive. Even then only during the glut that widespread un economic fracking caused.
IMO using gas to generate power is a massive waste of reaources when we have ample coal reserves. In addition coal mining is much less destructive foot print wise than gas.

 

[BWALKER77]

I think, all things considered, hydro is the best way to make electricity. We have pretty well tapped the best sources, so little room for growth.


Coal is dependent on society accepting all of its pollution, from heavy metals, SO2, coal ash and CO2. Coal is on its way out as fuel for electricity production.

Also, double check the cost of producing electricity with nuclear... it is cheaper than coal. Its biggest drawback is what to do with spent fuel. That is a large political football to resolve.

SO2 hasn't been an issue with coal plants for a very long time. Same story for heavy metals. The plant I worked at had mercury capture back in the early Bush years.Coal ash is also not an issue. When I worked in power gen the company I worked at made money selling all their combustion by products. Bottom ash was used for making road base, fly ash for cement and gypsum from the scrubbers was sold for dry wall or as a soil ammendment.
With a bit of time CO2 scrubbing will also exist.
And nuclear is not cheaper than coal or gas. I use to see the dispatch prices every morning.
Hydro is losing capacity, not gaining and its pretty destructive environmentally and believe it or not produces more than a fair bit of methane, which is a much more potent GHG than CO2.
The reasons that guys make comments like you and Ben have made is the leftists media is so scientifically ignorant they parrot what ever crap a leftist tree huggers group gives them.

 

[MTGomer]

nuclear... it is cheaper than coal. Its biggest drawback is what to do with spent fuel. That is a large political football to resolve.

As you point out, this is a purely political issue that has nothing to do with safety or the environment. All of the nuclear waste ever created in the United States would fit in a football field inside of sealed concrete containers.

Nuclear waste used for energy production in the United States has never killed or injured a single person ever.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The economics of natural gas aren't so rosey right now. While it's a common leftists mantra tht natural gas beat out coal based on economics that simply isn't accurate. Only after a crazy amount of regulations where placed on the coal industry was gas competitive. Even then only during the glut that widespread un economic fracking caused.
IMO using gas to generate power is a massive waste of reaources when we have ample coal reserves. In addition coal mining is much less destructive foot print wise than gas.

I feel like I've walked into a portal and it's 2005 all over again.

Cloud Peak told the Legislature that S. Korea was going to save coal mining in the US. Wyoming is closing it's last coal mine. Colstrip is still gonna close. Those are economic decisions made by industry based on where the profit lies.

If you want to cling to a past that isn't coming back, by all means do so. But it's not going to change what's happening.

 

[Irrelevant]

As you point out, this is a purely political issue that has nothing to do with safety or the environment. All of the nuclear waste ever created in the United States would fit in a football field inside of sealed concrete containers.

Nuclear waste used for energy production in the United States has never killed or injured a single person ever.

Political isn't the only drawback. https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/feb/02/hanford-cleanup-costs-triple-and-thats-the-best-ca/

100's of billions in cleanup. Plus, every sealed concrete container they've tried has eventually failed. But I still think it's the only viable option for the future.

 

[406dn]

As you point out, this is a purely political issue that has nothing to do with safety or the environment. All of the nuclear waste ever created in the United States would fit in a football field inside of sealed concrete containers.

Nuclear waste used for energy production in the United States has never killed or injured a single person ever.

My brother and I were discussing climate change, yada, yada while elk hunting the first week of the season. It's my opinion that any solution in reducing CO2 emitted has to include nuclear power. It is so energy dense that it is hard to fathom.

I do have reservations, based on my working career. More than once I saw calculated risks that risked a process incident in order to delay a repair. Most of the time it worked...not always however. It is that part of human nature that gives me some concern about nuclear power plants.

But, it has to be part of future electrical production.

 

[MTGomer]

Political isn't the only drawback. https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/feb/02/hanford-cleanup-costs-triple-and-thats-the-best-ca/

100's of billions in cleanup. Plus, every sealed concrete container they've tried has eventually failed. But I still think it's the only viable option for the future.

What’s the story on that place? 530 sq miles??? Is that a typo? That’s 340,000 acres.

I’ve been to Palo Verde in AZ and it’s probably a few thousand acres and is one of the nations largest energy producers.

I did see in the article “It is massively contaminated with radioactive and hazardous chemical waste from the past production of plutonium for the nation’s nuclear weapons program.”

Is it also a test site or mine site?
Sounds like there’s more going on there than energy production.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Is it also a test site or mine site?
Sounds like there’s more going on there than energy production.

Likely it's the effects of weapons testing from the late forties to the 60's. Same issue with uranium miners & mill workers from the same time period. The United States is paying out billions of dollars to cover the health care caused by the nuclear program. My father was one of these folks - he worked in an uranium mill in the gas hills of Wyoming and got renal cell carcinoma from it. Private company profit margins mattered more than worker health in Dad's case, cold war arms race in the SW, so lots of folks dying from this now who were poisoned 60 years ago.

Downwinders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Irrelevant]

What’s the story on that place? 530 sq miles??? Is that a typo? That’s 340,000 acres.

I’ve been to Palo Verde in AZ and it’s probably a few thousand acres and is one of the nations largest energy producers.

I did see in the article “It is massively contaminated with radioactive and hazardous chemical waste from the past production of plutonium for the nation’s nuclear weapons program.”

Is it also a test site or mine site?
Sounds like there’s more going on there than energy production.

well the "site" is that big, but not all of it is contaminated. I mean there's a state hwy right through the middle of it. Plus you can fish the Columbia along one side.

Hanford Site - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Only one of the reactors was ever used for energy (and it stopped in 1987), the rest was weapons.

No testing, just production and the associated waste from it. Part of the problem was the timing, I mean this was in the 1940's and was initially completed under wraps.

 

[BWALKER77]

I feel like I've walked into a portal and it's 2005 all over again.

Cloud Peak told the Legislature that S. Korea was going to save coal mining in the US. Wyoming is closing it's last coal mine. Colstrip is still gonna close. Those are economic decisions made by industry based on where the profit lies.

If you want to cling to a past that isn't coming back, by all means do so. But it's not going to change what's happening.

Your dancing around what caused those economic conditions. It was a concerted plan to make it shake out that way.
And Wyoming has planets of coal mines still in operation.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Your dancing around what caused those economic conditions. It was a concerted plan to make it shake out that way.
And Wyoming has planets of coal mines still in operation.

You ignore the largest issue at hand: Fracking & CMB plays in the early 2000's. When nat gas was going for pennies per MCF, coal was in trouble, then with the increased emissions standards, nat gas was even more attractive even though states & the fed threw billions at "clean coal" technology that hasn't worked in over 20 years.

Whale oil went away thanks to kerosene. Kerosene went away thanks to electricity. Steam powered ships were abandoned thanks to diesel oil and the internal combustion engine.

Coal electrical generation is going away due to technology meeting the requirements better and cheaper. Those folks who work in coal are getting shafted again from their bosses who are pocketing 7 figure bonuses while laying off entire communities, but it's all the fault of some hippy in a prius.

And you are correect, there are still a lot of coal mines in Wyoming. It's just the largest producers who are shutting down. Apologies for that mistake.

 

[BuzzH]

As you point out, this is a purely political issue that has nothing to do with safety or the environment. All of the nuclear waste ever created in the United States would fit in a football field inside of sealed concrete containers.

Nuclear waste used for energy production in the United States has never killed or injured a single person ever.

Not true, didn't one guy break his shoulder at three mile Island? Fell off a ladder IIRC.

 

[BWALKER77]

You ignore the largest issue at hand: Fracking & CMB plays in the early 2000's. When nat gas was going for pennies per MCF, coal was in trouble, then with the increased emissions standards, nat gas was even more attractive even though states & the fed threw billions at "clean coal" technology that hasn't worked in over 20 years.

Whale oil went away thanks to kerosene. Kerosene went away thanks to electricity. Steam powered ships were abandoned thanks to diesel oil and the internal combustion engine.

Coal electrical generation is going away due to technology meeting the requirements better and cheaper. Those folks who work in coal are getting shafted again from their bosses who are pocketing 7 figure bonuses while laying off entire communities, but it's all the fault of some hippy in a prius.

And you are correect, there are still a lot of coal mines in Wyoming. It's just the largest producers who are shutting down. Apologies for that mistake.

And where are we now with natural gas prices soaring? Even back then when gas was going for pennies the industry had a good understanding of its shortfalls. They also understood that long term prices would not stay low. I'm not guessing. I was there and in on those meetings.
And let me repeat this one more time. Coal going away wasn't a technology issue. It's still one of the most cost effective, stable, reliable energy sources we have.
Coal is going away due to politics and nothing more. And the woke idiot driving the Prius support the politicians torpedoing it.

 

[BWALKER77]

You ignore the largest issue at hand: Fracking & CMB plays in the early 2000's. When nat gas was going for pennies per MCF, coal was in trouble, then with the increased emissions standards, nat gas was even more attractive even though states & the fed threw billions at "clean coal" technology that hasn't worked in over 20 years.

Whale oil went away thanks to kerosene. Kerosene went away thanks to electricity. Steam powered ships were abandoned thanks to diesel oil and the internal combustion engine.

Coal electrical generation is going away due to technology meeting the requirements better and cheaper. Those folks who work in coal are getting shafted again from their bosses who are pocketing 7 figure bonuses while laying off entire communities, but it's all the fault of some hippy in a prius.

And you are correect, there are still a lot of coal mines in Wyoming. It's just the largest producers who are shutting down. Apologies for that mistake.

The largest producers are having a pretty damn good year this year and the largest Producer will be around for decades.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The largest producers are having a pretty damn good year this year and the largest Producer will be around for decades.

OK Boomer.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/wyoming/articles/2021-10-31/workers-brace-for-wyoming-underground-coal-mine-closure

U.S. coal production is up sharply after hitting a 50-year low last year

As the Biden administration prepares to negotiate reductions in fossil fuel use at the Glasgow climate summit at the end of the month, U.S. coal production is actually up significantly this year.

www.npr.org

Wyoming plans for post-coal economy -Energy News Network

The ‘Energy Capital of the Nation’ looks to events, sports, and carbon tech to offset its diminishing fossil fuels industries.

energynews.us

Biggest US coal plant, a Powder River Basin customer, will cut generation in half

Three Wyoming mines — Buckskin, Caballo and Eagle Butte — supply most of the millions of short tons of coal burned annually by Georgia’s 3,520-megawatt Robert W. Scherer Power Plant.

trib.com

 

[BWALKER77]

OK Boomer.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/wyoming/articles/2021-10-31/workers-brace-for-wyoming-underground-coal-mine-closure

U.S. coal production is up sharply after hitting a 50-year low last year

As the Biden administration prepares to negotiate reductions in fossil fuel use at the Glasgow climate summit at the end of the month, U.S. coal production is actually up significantly this year.

www.npr.org

Wyoming plans for post-coal economy -Energy News Network

The ‘Energy Capital of the Nation’ looks to events, sports, and carbon tech to offset its diminishing fossil fuels industries.

energynews.us

Biggest US coal plant, a Powder River Basin customer, will cut generation in half

Three Wyoming mines — Buckskin, Caballo and Eagle Butte — supply most of the millions of short tons of coal burned annually by Georgia’s 3,520-megawatt Robert W. Scherer Power Plant.

trib.com

@Ben Lamb , not close to being a boomer.

 

[BigHornRam]

Coal consumption (at least in the US) is supposed to end by 2025, and it will be 2030 before the Terra power Wyoming reactor is operational (probably well beyond 2030). Resistance to nuclear by the global warming crowd is as strong as ever. I predict massive energy shortages second half of this decade. Might be a good time to buy a backup home generator.

How promising are Bill Gates' nuclear plans? – DW – 11/08/2021

Companies owned by billionaires Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are planning to launch the first so-called Natrium nuclear reactor project. Many experts see the project as a misguided attempt to hit CO2 reduction targets.

www.dw.com

 

[406dn]

Might be a good time to buy a backup home generator.

Except what is it going to run on??