The future of Preference Points
- Thread starter Ben Lamb
- Start date
- State’s rights/ 10th amendment.
- Nobody in a western state would support it. Certainly understand why non-western state residents would want it.
- No two western states have ever even coordinated draw deadlines/results to help out a travelling hunter. How would they ever coordinate on tag allocation?
- Technology - see Arizona.
BrentD
Well-known member
1. Irrelevant if they want to cooperate. The states cooperate all the time on fish and wildlife management. ALL the time.
2. Wrong. Lots of nonhunters and former out of state hunters probably would.
3. So? Gotta start sometime. Quit living and thinking in your tiny little box. It's a tough problem that will require creative thinking.
4. Never been easier. Never. Even Arizona can figure it out.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Pure fantasy, best case.
Hunters that take it seriously won't want to be limited by one NR tag a year. Not to mention that many states allow both R and NR's to have multiple buck tags for the same species for management reasons.
Further, there is no legitimate reason why one hunter should be limited to one buck deer and one bull elk tag a year.
This is the land of the free, why ridiculous idea's like this are destined for the dust bin where they belong.
Agree with buzz, if you can’t find somewhere or something to hunt on your public land you simply aren’t trying. It may not always be like that but as of now it is. Pump the brakes on your dream tag or be patient and win the lottery of tags some do every year.
QuazyQuinton
Well-known member
I leave the country for a few days and can't read HuntTalk because I've travelled to a country that seems to be on Big Fin's blacklist, and you guys all start beating this dead horse again. A couple days late, but I do want to respond to this mathematical deception.
Just to throw some numbers at it, if Hunt A (points) moves from 11 points to 17 points, point creep is a bad thing. On the other hand, if Hunt B (random) drops from 8.3% to 5.5%, you are suggesting that those numbers are "fairly equal." The truth is that those two changes are the same in their long term effect. It's fine to celebrate "having a chance," but you're suffering just the same. Random systems do not mean you can magically hunt more often.
I don't worry too much about points myself. I am content just hunting locally with OTC tags. I do apply for tags I would like to get, but I also buy lottery tickets with the same hope of winning. Everyone complains about the system, and there is plenty of reason to complain, I suppose. I hear the call for a random draw but that won't fix anything. The bitching and moaning may tail off for a few years but when the realization hits, that most will never draw the coveted tags while a few will draw them seemingly year after year, the bitching will be louder than ever. The problem is too few tags for too many hunters, not the system for allocating those tags.
But, if you want a random draw, why have a draw at all? Why spend money to apply for a lottery? The state should just sell over the counter tags until the quota in the unit is met. To make it seem "fairer" you could make it so that only every 100th person attempting to by a tag gets the tag, and you could only try to buy any particular tag once a year. Since all the good tags will be sold out in a very short time, many people will miss the window of opportunity completely, lessening the competition. The only thing lost is the anticipation that you might just get that tag this year. Instead, you get instant disappointment.
But, if you want a random draw, why have a draw at all? Why spend money to apply for a lottery? The state should just sell over the counter tags until the quota in the unit is met. To make it seem "fairer" you could make it so that only every 100th person attempting to by a tag gets the tag, and you could only try to buy any particular tag once a year. Since all the good tags will be sold out in a very short time, many people will miss the window of opportunity completely, lessening the competition. The only thing lost is the anticipation that you might just get that tag this year. Instead, you get instant disappointment.
I don't disagree with your final take, but the issue at hand is do you want to buy lottery tickets for the same chance, or let the random draw happen and avoid situations that can get abused for the wealthy & elite hunters?
Agencies love points - it's more cash in their account without much expense in terms of managing those points. HUnters like it because they think they're upping their odds, but in reality they aren't.
I'd rather the 16 year old kid have the same level of sucky chance that the 65 year old dude did. If the issue is a lack of game, then let's grow more game.
BrentD
Well-known member
What I USED to like about points wasn't the increased odds per se, but the predictability that I could plan on having a hunt in a given year. I do not expect to be able to draw a tag annually or anything of the sort, but I'd like to think that I could expect to have a hunt every 4 or 5 yrs.
LopeHunter
Well-known member
The thing is, to hunt every 4 or 5 years then tags awarded for a species have to be around 25% of the applicants seeking a tag. Very few western hunts have units with 20% or better odds that lack a lot of warts such as limited public land or a guide requirement or very low harvest rates, etc. Thus, points are not likely to open up hunting as often as you are saying is unlocked with a point system, especially if apply as a non-resident.
What points do achieve, since are only so many tags, is to ensure the 16 year old or the soldier that is assigned to a base in your state is starting years in the hole to draw a tag compared to anyone with one or more points built-up. See WY sheep as an example. In a random system, f you have been unsuccessful for 5 years then you had 5 bites at the apple to get a tag compared to a first year applicant. As for luck giving a lot of tags to someone then have wait periods when you draw a tag whether successful or not on the harvest. How long to wait? Easy. Applicants for that unit/tags awarded to your residency. 100 applicants and 20 tags then you wait 5 years if you draw this year. If 250 applicants and 1 tag then you wait 250 years. I may be luckier than you but not every year or two for a tag that has excess demand.
As for you can plan the year you can hunt then your hunts must have very predictable point creep with you positive there will be 100% draw for your point level this next application attempt. I hear about instances where that is not the case so you really are not locking in a hunt for the year you want in a preference point system.
Is a waste of time to design a "fairer' system for new entrants as state F&G want that fee stream and if is random then no reason to buy points and no reason as the economy contracts the next few quarters to pay to apply in a state which is what NM saw 2009 and 2010 for low odds draw participation by non-residents and even some residents. Food on the table and keeping the house trumps hunt tag applications when there is no gun to your head with a point system.
BrentD
Well-known member
No, not really. But we've been through that. Repetition accomplishes nothing.
Buffs35
Well-known member
Math, it's not for everyone.
Shangobango
Well-known member
I keep seeing that thrown around but it is simply not entirely true.
It mat not accomplish a lot mathematically but to say it accomplishes nothing mathematically is simply false.
Shangobango
Well-known member
Apparently.
Shangobango
Well-known member
Hysterically dumb.
You want to go this route then keep your blood thirst off of federal land.
See I can say dumb stuff too.
BenInMT
Well-known member
Are you one of those guys trying to figure out how to fill and film 6 different bull tags this year? I speak for many a western hunter when I say we are fed up with the pretend hunters/huntresses, social media wanna be influencers, elk schools and training courses, YouTube nerds, tough guy protein powder companies specifically formulated for hunting. Bunch of posers trying to hawk something to make a buck off of what some of us learned on our own over the course of decades. Now all the whining about not being able to get a tag. Maybe that’s because your favorite “influencer” has 6 bull tags this year. Maybe that’s because of all these services selling everything from application strategy to GPS locations. Maybe just maybe Newberg himself shoulders some blame for where we are. Kind of hard to hawk this dream for dollars and then not own responsibility for what we all seem to regard as the end of western hunting like we knew it.
I will reiterate, we need to end NR hunting across the west, except when outfitted. Anything else is just bandaids on a head wound. Don’t like it pack up your stuff and become a stakeholder in a western state.
While I appreciate your passion, I grow weary of the fact you lack the wisdom to see your “fix” would do nothing to help the DIY guy.
It’s dumb. Just dumb.
nah, if we do any drastic dumbassery we should just end outfitting across the west. that might actually solve some problems.
