Temporary Hyalite Target Shooting Prohibition Permanent Proposal
- Thread starter katqanna
- Start date
onpoint
Well-known member
The population explosion in places like the Gallatin Valley will likely cause "things like this" to progress to other very accessible public lands. The Hyalite Syndrome will likely spread elsewhere in these parts. I was on another piece of pretty accessible of USFS yesterday - the numbers of ATV's, beer cans, and gunshots was fairly irritating. Been hunting birds there many years, shot a real nice 4 pt Muley there in 1991.... probably will write it off, let "them" have it.
The Tragedy of the Commons.
Wilderness and largely unroaded areas, in my opinion, are only going to become more important to some of us as time progresses.
Hyalite used to be a very nice place. Taught my brother to fish and shoot up there, back when the road was a gravel and mudhole, as I'm sure did many others around Bozeman.............
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Having fished, hunted, and recreated up Hyalite for over five decades, I am in favor of imposing permanent shooting restrictions in that otherwise peaceful area. The trend to shoot down trees by the wanna-be assault rifle warriors, drag furniture and appliances up there for targets, leave trash ammo boxes and expended shells, fling and litter blaze orange clay pigeons everywhere, and continuously ruin the quiet peaceful recreational atmosphere in the canyon are only a few of the examples which warrant the restrictions. Perhaps my recent curmudgeon attitude, exacerbated by chronological evolvement, has resulted in my opinion that this behavior seems to be culturally escalating and more socially acceptable ... rather than a function of the Bozeman area growth. It certainly supports the contention that we, as hunters and firearms owners, should work much harder to promote ethical hunting, use of firearms, and outdoor recreational activities in general. 'Just one guy's rant.
katqanna
Well-known member
Doesn't surprise me either, especially with the trash and safety.
I was talking about this population explosion thing to a friend (doctor and conservation hunter/angler) a couple of weeks ago, I had loaned him a copy of that Overshoot, Overpopulation book about a year ago, which had been on his mind. I was relaying to him my recent fishing trip (caught 5 cuts and 4 brookies, so enjoyable on the fish dinner front). We were in a boat, quieter that Saturday morning, but about 11:00 it exploded with tons of people, tubes, paddle boards, canoes and kayaks. I figured I should take a photo there during the week and then again on the weekend, same time, to show the impact, cause our population has certainly exploded down here. We decided to write an article about it with the stats, because public lands aren't increasing much, but the local, US and international users sure have. Management can't keep acting like it is the 1950's "Leave it to Beaver" times.
I went to the FWP Region 3 Madison River strategies meeting on the 29th, it was about crowding and possible regulations. We only found out about it 2 days before the meeting, a lot of people wanted to go but were not here or couldn't get over due to prior engagements or because FWP set it for 7-9 pm and they would have had to drive about an hour and half one way. I sent a note to some that were on a list concerned about this meeting.
They did the same process of the '15 and Forward meetings. They stated it was well past time for this discussion/conversation, asked that we trust this process. We were broken into two groups to address two sections of the Madison. Then FWP group leaders presented the opinions expressed by each group.
1. From the Lyon Bridge to Ennis - Because of concerns about congestion, crowding, and social conflict, have we come to a point in time where there is a need for FWP to regulate when and where the public or river service providers can recreate on this stretch of the river? If yes, why? If no, why not? No 2 was the same for Hebgen Dam to Lyon Bridge (where fishing from a boat is currently prohibited).
There were a variety of positions towards regulation, but most were in agreement that things have changed and there is more use, creating some conflicts, and mixed opinions of whether or not this needed regulation or some form public awareness to self regulate conflicts. Parking was one repeated issue, as well as more activity on the water, from floaters and boaters. One thing I asked in our group, which was mirrored in the others, was a request for data, has FWP been collecting data to ascertain use, by what user groups, what times of year, what times of day? Most seemed to feel it was a people management issue, not a resource management issue.
While there was less conflict in the 2nd area, some commenters stated the no fishing from boats was being ignored, that boats were interfering with the waders. One person stated, and was confirmed by some others, that there is conflict with the landowners in this area, some fencing to the water or harassing the public. Some of the public expressed concern over the river being broken up by sections, believing it needed to be managed as a whole.
Sam Shepard said they were incorporating the comments from the process a few years ago, not starting from scratch. They were looking at MEPA and MAPA, a potential EA possibly by November or later. They could use the River Management Act process or rule making.
While we were broken up in the groups, I shared my recent fishing story, that while fishing in a boat, I saw 4 canoes and one double kayak pull up to the bank, everyone getting out, setting up some folding chairs and they just talked, visited for about 1 1/2 hours, they they took off again. What got me was only the kayak had 2 people in it. The 3 seat canoes each had 1 person - 6 people, 5 vehicles. I am thinking, there are probably 5 vehicles in that parking lot too. If these people were visiting, why not car pool and boat pool, relieve some of the congestion?
I think the population explosions are demanding management attention, especially when certain users don't respect the resource, like with trash, or safety.
I was talking about this population explosion thing to a friend (doctor and conservation hunter/angler) a couple of weeks ago, I had loaned him a copy of that Overshoot, Overpopulation book about a year ago, which had been on his mind. I was relaying to him my recent fishing trip (caught 5 cuts and 4 brookies, so enjoyable on the fish dinner front). We were in a boat, quieter that Saturday morning, but about 11:00 it exploded with tons of people, tubes, paddle boards, canoes and kayaks. I figured I should take a photo there during the week and then again on the weekend, same time, to show the impact, cause our population has certainly exploded down here. We decided to write an article about it with the stats, because public lands aren't increasing much, but the local, US and international users sure have. Management can't keep acting like it is the 1950's "Leave it to Beaver" times.
I went to the FWP Region 3 Madison River strategies meeting on the 29th, it was about crowding and possible regulations. We only found out about it 2 days before the meeting, a lot of people wanted to go but were not here or couldn't get over due to prior engagements or because FWP set it for 7-9 pm and they would have had to drive about an hour and half one way. I sent a note to some that were on a list concerned about this meeting.
They did the same process of the '15 and Forward meetings. They stated it was well past time for this discussion/conversation, asked that we trust this process. We were broken into two groups to address two sections of the Madison. Then FWP group leaders presented the opinions expressed by each group.
1. From the Lyon Bridge to Ennis - Because of concerns about congestion, crowding, and social conflict, have we come to a point in time where there is a need for FWP to regulate when and where the public or river service providers can recreate on this stretch of the river? If yes, why? If no, why not? No 2 was the same for Hebgen Dam to Lyon Bridge (where fishing from a boat is currently prohibited).
There were a variety of positions towards regulation, but most were in agreement that things have changed and there is more use, creating some conflicts, and mixed opinions of whether or not this needed regulation or some form public awareness to self regulate conflicts. Parking was one repeated issue, as well as more activity on the water, from floaters and boaters. One thing I asked in our group, which was mirrored in the others, was a request for data, has FWP been collecting data to ascertain use, by what user groups, what times of year, what times of day? Most seemed to feel it was a people management issue, not a resource management issue.
While there was less conflict in the 2nd area, some commenters stated the no fishing from boats was being ignored, that boats were interfering with the waders. One person stated, and was confirmed by some others, that there is conflict with the landowners in this area, some fencing to the water or harassing the public. Some of the public expressed concern over the river being broken up by sections, believing it needed to be managed as a whole.
Sam Shepard said they were incorporating the comments from the process a few years ago, not starting from scratch. They were looking at MEPA and MAPA, a potential EA possibly by November or later. They could use the River Management Act process or rule making.
While we were broken up in the groups, I shared my recent fishing story, that while fishing in a boat, I saw 4 canoes and one double kayak pull up to the bank, everyone getting out, setting up some folding chairs and they just talked, visited for about 1 1/2 hours, they they took off again. What got me was only the kayak had 2 people in it. The 3 seat canoes each had 1 person - 6 people, 5 vehicles. I am thinking, there are probably 5 vehicles in that parking lot too. If these people were visiting, why not car pool and boat pool, relieve some of the congestion?
I think the population explosions are demanding management attention, especially when certain users don't respect the resource, like with trash, or safety.
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onpoint
Well-known member
At soon to not be 53 anymore, I am more and more conscious of how glad I am the age I am today. I was lucky enough to do and see some pretty incredible things when it come to this stuff. Like it or nor, believe it or not, this "stuff" is in the process of going away, or at the very best changing to something a lot of us won't like much. Spent the last almost 40 years immersed in this "stuff" personally, socially, and professionally. I plan to spend the rest of my life in it. I see "Hyalite" type issues every single day. Enjoy the shit out of the things we all talk about on this board as much as you possibly can. If you have the fortitude and attitude, keep fighting for it. There are a few on this site I have a great appreciation and respect for, because they actually do live this stuff - they enjoy it AND carry the heavy load(s) for those who choose not to.
Snowing in the high country as we speak
Snowing in the high country as we speak
RobG
Well-known member
I agree, and I too remember when it was a mudhole to get up there, and also going up to shoot. It's too bad, but maybe it will help shooters realize there is a consequence to being irresponsible. As you know, the thing with Hyalite is that it is hugely popular and most people go up there to enjoy non-shooting recreation. They come back with stories of messes and idiots shooting towards the trials they were walking/skiiing. The constant sound of shooting even bothered me. The shooting will move elsewhere, but those areas will be less visible to the general public.
Koodos to NKQualtieri for getting BHA to help clean up this spring. They and Friends of Hyalite hauled out 2 tons of lead from the popular shooting areas in addition to truckloads of garbage.
Last I heard this is not supported by the NRA. The NRA is pushing legislation in the Sportsman Bill to stop these shutdowns, further absolving slob shooters from any responsibility and making all gun owners looks like idiots. This legislation would also require the GNF to clean up the areas which would deplete funding and manpower that should be used to help legitimate users enjoy these areas. It will be back on the table after the election so keep an eye out for it.
Hunts
Member
I was up bird hunting in Hyalite on friday. The slob shooters are still around shooting at and taking down the signs that have been posted in most clearings. My dog ran through a huge pile of broken glass before I had time to catch her. What has happened here is truly the "tragedy of the commons". Exploding population growth in the valley is only making things worse. Seems like everybody and their brother is moving to Bozeman.
katqanna
Well-known member
I moved here to get away from the big cities, yet I constantly see more and more Texas license plates. I saw a "Don't Mess With Texas Mothers" bumper sticker on a Texas license plated car, then a 1950's flatbed old red pick up truck at the mall with two big flags on each side, one being the confederate. Now y'all know I am from Texas, but I sure as hail don't want to see this kind of the South colonizing Montana like frickin fireants. I want to help keep Montana wild, keep it Montana.
Hunts
Member
Kat,
Yep. The last 20 yrs here have been great. The next 20 are not looking good. Can only wonder what the air quality will be like in the valley this winter with all the vehicles. You won't hear the Chronicle, Chamber of Commerce or Prospera talk about that!
Yep. The last 20 yrs here have been great. The next 20 are not looking good. Can only wonder what the air quality will be like in the valley this winter with all the vehicles. You won't hear the Chronicle, Chamber of Commerce or Prospera talk about that!
onpoint
Well-known member
Don't fool yourself. The fact that this conversation is taking place, indicates that the "colonization" has already happened. The locals forgot to fence us out back in the late 70's. Bozeman is about as much "Montana" as are fire ants. If all goes well, I hope to move to Montana after retirement allows me to. Then I'll be one of the city slicker transplants that the folks at the cafe gossip about during morning coffee. Any luck at all, one of 'em will feel sorry for me and let me shoot a couple sharpies on their place..........
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Again, I don't think it's as much the uptick in growth and numbers of Hyalite recreational area users, as it is the seemingly socially acceptable behavior demonstrating some ramped up display of high testosterone and the false attitude that blowing stuff up, destroying property, and casually littering beer cans and other trash is a sign of manhood. My curmudgeon-like perception blames an adversely impacting sense of arrogant entitlement and overblown attitudes about "personal rights" which are sadly ever increasingly prevalent in society today ... especially on our beautiful but somewhat fragile public lands. Unfortunately, the attitudes about rights are not accompanied by the appropriate respectful sense of responsibility.
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RobG
Well-known member
Kat - your link didn't work. Here is the Aug 22 press release: http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/custergallatin/news-events/?cid=FSEPRD515748
I'll be supporting the closure with the caveat that they should develop a place close to Bozeman for the purpose of target practice. It is sad it has come to this.
I'll be supporting the closure with the caveat that they should develop a place close to Bozeman for the purpose of target practice. It is sad it has come to this.
katqanna
Well-known member
Rob, I just copied the link location to see why it didn't work, I accidentally copied the title into the link location. No way to edit it now, thanks for getting the correct link up, though I copied all the text of that page with the comment email.
I am also in support of the closure, begrudgingly. I recognize the conflict here, the safety issues and vandalism aspect, but hate that it has to be done because of some bad apples. I wish there was a range nearby, but even if there were, that would not stop those that like to take rubbish out and shoot it up. A closer location might at least provide an avenue for locals.
While I had shot at the Logan range as a guest this spring, early summer, prefer to shoot at an established range for practice, I wouldn't want to have to drive all that distance just for a spur of the moment sighting or practice; nor do I want a membership there because they require the NRA membership, I dropped mine years ago.
I am also in support of the closure, begrudgingly. I recognize the conflict here, the safety issues and vandalism aspect, but hate that it has to be done because of some bad apples. I wish there was a range nearby, but even if there were, that would not stop those that like to take rubbish out and shoot it up. A closer location might at least provide an avenue for locals.
While I had shot at the Logan range as a guest this spring, early summer, prefer to shoot at an established range for practice, I wouldn't want to have to drive all that distance just for a spur of the moment sighting or practice; nor do I want a membership there because they require the NRA membership, I dropped mine years ago.
RobG
Well-known member
For those that don't know, you don't need an NRA membership for the Park County Rod and Gun Club on the east side of Livingston. It's a drive, but they have benches and a decent range. Their web presence is dismal, but you can get a membership and directions at the ACE Hardware in Livingston.
Hunts
Member
Avoid the Park County club. The road is full of 3 foot deep ruts, rattlesnakes everywhere, and there are rusty nails poking up through the benches. Logan is the place you want to be.
We have a restricted target shooting area east of Laramie, Pole Mtn. , during the summer until mid Sept. It definitely helps during the early part of archery season. Once the restriction time is over the animals know it. You may hunt legally during the restriction on target shooting. It can be a good thing for safety as this area is a rock climbing and mtn biking hotbed. If it doesn't affect the hunting access then I would be for it, but it's easy for me to say , I don't live there.
katqanna
Well-known member
Park County's website is a blog, not a true site. I offered a couple years ago to help them set a site up or modify this one with tabs for static information.
The Park County Rod and Gun Club is located on 62 acres of 99 year leased private land, 3 miles north of Livingston, Montana at 154 Meigs Road, Livingston, Montana 59047
Anyway, here is their map for directions. I've been out there for a meeting before, and yes, it is a drive from Bozeman. A few years back they applied for a grant from FWP for improvements and got it.
The Park County Rod and Gun Club is located on 62 acres of 99 year leased private land, 3 miles north of Livingston, Montana at 154 Meigs Road, Livingston, Montana 59047
Anyway, here is their map for directions. I've been out there for a meeting before, and yes, it is a drive from Bozeman. A few years back they applied for a grant from FWP for improvements and got it.
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