South East Montana - Custer National Forest

[----]

I understand what Kurt is saying. In my family, as a young kid, I was told that you don't mention where you hunt to anyone, not even in your sleep. Over the years many people have gone so far as to hunt down the vehicles we use to figure out where to hunt. If possible we have went to the extent of hiding them at the get out spots. In 1985 ( I had an extremely good Bitterroot elk area), I was packing out a bull on my back when I came face to face with this guy. He said that he recognized my vehicle, from other years, and drove down to see where I was hunting. Then he followed my tracks into the area I was hunting. The tracks had played out, but he was into so much elk that he kept going, and then ran into me packing the bull. Long story short, he was a writer for Outdoor life, I thought he said Barness or close to that, anyway the next year he showed up with an entourage of people to hunt with. As I worked through the week, they hunted being Non residents. They were successfull and had write ups in the mags, even to the point of mentioning where. Within a couple of years the area was ruined by too many people using that same area. There still is an over abundance of people hunting there that normally wouldn't. It's never been the same.

This guy didn't just mention a general area but was very specific in where to go. People will not do the work for themselves as far a scouting goes, and will take the easy road others have paved.

My advice is to be careful on being specific on where your hunting. Generalizations are OK and make the newbie at least do his or hers' own scouting.

Largely the best Bear hunting is in North West Montana.

The most elk are historically killed in region 3.

The best Antelope have come from several county's in Eastern Montana.

Best Buffalo is near Gardner.

Best sheep could be considered the Breaks area.

The worst elk hunting is Western Montana. :hump:

This is where I'm at. Growing up in Montana, hunting spots were sacred. You just didn't share that information, and if you did, it was understood that that person respects the spot as yours.

It makes perfect sense to people that grew up with that mentality, and makes no sense to those that didn't.

To this day, if someone shows me or tells me about a spot, I simply won't go there without asking them first. A member here told me about a spot in a limited entry elk unit in Montana. The next year I asked him if he minded if I apply for the unit, and each subsequent spring before I applied I asked if me minded. I hope he appreciated that. I personally don't like hunting with that attachment, so I rarely hunt spots unless I find them myself. I take pride in that.

I've helped a lot of friends that come in from out of state by showing them a spot to hunt. Multiple times I've been told the next year that they're planning on hunting the same spot, or even hear later that they hunted it again without talking to me. They're not hiding it from me, they just honestly never think twice about it. Public land is public land to them, no different than recommending a restaurant.

It's a weird situation, and for those of us that have lived our life with that mentality this whole gohunt/huntinfool/hunttalk movement is a hard pill to swallow. Even on Hunt talk 5-7 years ago, you not dare ask someone where they hunt. Now it's almost expected to be open about it. Hell, even in this thread it's implied you're anti-public lands if you don't want to share your spots.

Some of these services are even going around and offering payment to hunters to give up info. That's rough, and makes it hard for guys to trust who they can and can't share info with.

I think eventually the guys with this old way mentality are going to go away as information will becom more and more available. That's depressing to me. But, that's my problem, not Randy's or anyone else's.

 

[Nameless Range]

Interesting conversation.

In my own experience, I will be very open about a hunting spot for a tag with a highly limited draw. For example, I will tell people the exact island I killed a moose on in unit 362. Good luck getting the tag.

When it comes to deer and elk spots, of which I have few, I won't share them outside of my brother and dad and a few friends, always with the agreement that those spots not be shared with others. Sometimes the agreements fall through.

The most sacred type of spot are those ridges where my brother and I go to fill our limits of Blue Grouse. Those are a secret between us and the dog.

There is an inverse relationship with the amount of people you share a spot with and the likelihood of that spot remaining a secret. I am no great hunter, but those hunters I do know who seem to have it all figured out don't seem to have "spots", at least in my experience. They have time and iron lungs. For those of us that don't have much of either, a "spot" becomes more valuable. So I understand the distress people feel when their spot is shared in an instagram post by a guy who slays elk every year. I also understand, and very much appreciate, helping people out who have little to no hunting experience. Most of us had a dad or someone to introduce us to hunting. I think it can be easy to dismiss the size of the learning curve for those that don't or didn't.

 

[The Hedgehog]

"Hate" and "lashing out" seem like an excessive description for my poke at the SE MT advertising/traffic direction.

Randy, is hunting SE MT this year again on your "white board", or was last season one last hurrah to hit it and quit it?

Do you still do the Durfee Hills and plan to hunt that again?

 

[JohnCushman]

This is where I'm at. Growing up in Montana, hunting spots were sacred. You just didn't share that information, and if you did, it was understood that that person respects the spot as yours.

It makes perfect sense to people that grew up with that mentality, and makes no sense to those that didn't.

To this day, if someone shows me or tells me about a spot, I simply won't go there without asking them first. A member here told me about a spot in a limited entry elk unit in Montana. The next year I asked him if he minded if I apply for the unit, and each subsequent spring before I applied I asked if me minded. I hope he appreciated that. I personally don't like hunting with that attachment, so I rarely hunt spots unless I find them myself. I take pride in that.

I've helped a lot of friends that come in from out of state by showing them a spot to hunt. Multiple times I've been told the next year that they're planning on hunting the same spot, or even hear later that they hunted it again without talking to me. They're not hiding it from me, they just honestly never think twice about it. Public land is public land to them, no different than recommending a restaurant.

It's a weird situation, and for those of us that have lived our life with that mentality this whole gohunt/huntinfool/hunttalk movement is a hard pill to swallow. Even on Hunt talk 5-7 years ago, you not dare ask someone where they hunt. Now it's almost expected to be open about it. Hell, even in this thread it's implied you're anti-public lands if you don't want to share your spots.

Some of these services are even going around and offering payment to hunters to give up info. That's rough, and makes it hard for guys to trust who they can and can't share info with.

I think eventually the guys with this old way mentality are going to go away as information will becom more and more available. That's depressing to me. But, that's my problem, not Randy's or anyone else's.

I see both sides of the argument. Growing up in Upstate NY with very little public land, you never told anybody where you shot a deer, because the next day there's be 20 guys showing up there. Hunting spots were sacred. But now that I've been out West and introduced to this whole public land things, it's kind of a process to absorb. What I see happening here is NR guys talking about a whole region. It's doubtful that anyone's honey hole is going to be invaded, so I don't understand what the argument is with talking about an entire region. If residents aren't going to hunt there, then what do they care? If there's going to be an orange army near the roads, who cares if a guy is willing to get away from the roads and go deep in? From what I can gather a region is a pretty damn big place. Just like where I hunt antelope in the grasslands, it's public and multiple thousands of acres, so I can always find antelope. I have shown a few people where I hunt and they have always shown me the respect of asking if I was going to hunt a spot that day or even what bucks I'm after so they don't kill one I've got my eyes set on. It's kind of a give and take, I suppose. Out here in the west we have to accept and endure the whole public lands thing, especially with GPS ownership mapping and online odds and information sites. Before we could blame Eastman's for overloading a spot, but now we can blame the internet and people who are willing to for over some cash for a service. So, I do understand the sanctity of a hunting spot, but I'm slowly learning internet searching and talking in PM's giving and taking information. It's a mess, really, and there's no good answer or solution.

 

[tjones]

This is where I'm at. Growing up in Montana, hunting spots were sacred. You just didn't share that information, and if you did, it was understood that that person respects the spot as yours.

It makes perfect sense to people that grew up with that mentality, and makes no sense to those that didn't.

To this day, if someone shows me or tells me about a spot, I simply won't go there without asking them first. A member here told me about a spot in a limited entry elk unit in Montana. The next year I asked him if he minded if I apply for the unit, and each subsequent spring before I applied I asked if me minded. I hope he appreciated that. I personally don't like hunting with that attachment, so I rarely hunt spots unless I find them myself. I take pride in that.

I've helped a lot of friends that come in from out of state by showing them a spot to hunt. Multiple times I've been told the next year that they're planning on hunting the same spot, or even hear later that they hunted it again without talking to me. They're not hiding it from me, they just honestly never think twice about it. Public land is public land to them, no different than recommending a restaurant.

It's a weird situation, and for those of us that have lived our life with that mentality this whole gohunt/huntinfool/hunttalk movement is a hard pill to swallow. Even on Hunt talk 5-7 years ago, you not dare ask someone where they hunt. Now it's almost expected to be open about it. Hell, even in this thread it's implied you're anti-public lands if you don't want to share your spots.

Some of these services are even going around and offering payment to hunters to give up info. That's rough, and makes it hard for guys to trust who they can and can't share info with.

I think eventually the guys with this old way mentality are going to go away as information will becom more and more available. That's depressing to me. But, that's my problem, not Randy's or anyone else's.

This, hits the nail on the head and saved me some typing.

The Durfee Hills is a perfect example. The amount of pressure they get from fly in traffic now does not compare to what it was before the first OYO Durfee eposide. Hard to say if folks would have found it anyway, but there is a lot more pressure now.

Another observation from the cheap seats. Non Resident/shorter time residents seem to have less problem with the sharing of spots then Native/long term residents. Just look at the replies on this thread.

 

[mn taxidermist]

Randy hasn't told any specific areas to hunt. He only mentions SE Montana , that's a lot of public and private land. He certainly isn't giving away any secrets or causing overcrowding of a certain spot. I hunted in the Custer last fall and never saw a hunter once we got off the road.

 

[iHunt]

Are people going crazy over SE Montana for the size of the bulls, number of bulls, size of the deer, or number of deer? Im just a littel confused. I know there are some huge bulls out there but everything I have read is that they are lower populations.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

Another observation from the cheap seats. Non Resident/shorter time residents seem to have less problem with the sharing of spots then Native/long term residents. Just look at the replies on this thread.

I would agree that it definitely is a different mentality, and takes some adjustment, and speaking for myself personally is definitely not due to a lack of respect for you guys. Hunting public land in at least the southern 2/3s of MN is almost a joke, and a vast majority of big game taken in MN is on private land, so who cares who knows where you got your deer?

One day in 2005 I just decided to go elk hunting, no experience, no one to learn from, just headed to an OTC CO unit with my bow. Wildly unsuccessful, and I had a tough time recruiting people to go with me, until I experienced some success, and then everyone wanted to come along (I have probably brought 8-10 NR into the game in the last 12 years.), and I was more than happy to share the few marginal spots I had managed to find. A few years ago I paired down the invites to a couple of core guys who were the only guys who actually wanted to help figure things out (ewludwig for one), and at about that same time met some MT guys, it definitely started to change my mindset.

I have plenty of empathy for the residents whose spots are getting blown up, and I try and be as respectful of that as I possibly can, because I know if I had grown up hunting these spots I would be a little sore too. Conversely, I also know how awesome my experiences have been hunting CO/WY/MT, and that I likely would have given up at some point without what I have learned from OYOA/FT/HT/my MT buddies.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I personally can't imagine spending the time and money to hunt deer out of state, to visit the Custer area. I suppose everybody's idea of a quality experience is different. I gave up there in 2001, but did shoot a deer while elk hunting in 2011. Had my son there in November of 2013 and visited the same place you did mn taxidermist. Hiked 2 miles into a hiking only area on a weekday and saw 7 other hunters that morning, one of which shot a deer my son was prone, aiming at. Fun times. If your bag is hunting with crowds, and hoping for a top end buck that's around 5 years from his prime, maybe it's a top pick. Just being honest. It was great in the 90s.

 

[1_pointer]

This is where I'm at. Growing up in Montana, hunting spots were sacred. You just didn't share that information, and if you did, it was understood that that person respects the spot as yours.

It makes perfect sense to people that grew up with that mentality, and makes no sense to those that didn't.

To this day, if someone shows me or tells me about a spot, I simply won't go there without asking them first. A member here told me about a spot in a limited entry elk unit in Montana. The next year I asked him if he minded if I apply for the unit, and each subsequent spring before I applied I asked if me minded. I hope he appreciated that. I personally don't like hunting with that attachment, so I rarely hunt spots unless I find them myself. I take pride in that.

I've helped a lot of friends that come in from out of state by showing them a spot to hunt. Multiple times I've been told the next year that they're planning on hunting the same spot, or even hear later that they hunted it again without talking to me. They're not hiding it from me, they just honestly never think twice about it. Public land is public land to them, no different than recommending a restaurant.

It's a weird situation, and for those of us that have lived our life with that mentality this whole gohunt/huntinfool/hunttalk movement is a hard pill to swallow. Even on Hunt talk 5-7 years ago, you not dare ask someone where they hunt. Now it's almost expected to be open about it. Hell, even in this thread it's implied you're anti-public lands if you don't want to share your spots.

Some of these services are even going around and offering payment to hunters to give up info. That's rough, and makes it hard for guys to trust who they can and can't share info with.

I think eventually the guys with this old way mentality are going to go away as information will becom more and more available. That's depressing to me. But, that's my problem, not Randy's or anyone else's.

Well said. Folks that grew up on places outside of MT were taught the same things... One guy finally got fed up with me asking his permission to apply to an area just told me to consider it my spot now.

 

[Big Fin]

Randy, is hunting SE MT this year again on your "white board", or was last season one last hurrah to hit it and quit it?

Yes, I'll be there this year. Again, this hunt will be with another non-resident who has never hunted the place and who I think is a good example of what we try to show in our TV show. The NR has already applied for the tag and we have it on the calendar.

Do you still do the Durfee Hills and plan to hunt that again?

You know the answer to that question as I have told you my thoughts on that in the past. If the Wilkes' fence mess on the north side was to ever get corrected to where it did not impede elk movement I would be there in a heartbeat. Until then, no. And I've told everyone who contacts me that they should not go there, and if they do, they should not hunt the north side were I have hunted. It has been negatively impacted since we did the TV shows and I would discourage folks from going there until that is fixed. I've probably answered twenty of those emails/PMs this year.

Yet, when the Wilkes were trying to pry the Durfees from the public, I sure got a hell of a lot of calls asking what I was doing to try stop it. I met with the Wilkes. I met with the BLM. I met with a lot of people, even though I knew I would not hunt it again until such time as the fence issue quit impeding elk movements. Nobody seemed to be too upset that our hunting the Durfees had raised supposedly the profile of that spot enough that our advocacy was deemed useful by a lot of people in trying to stop a lopsided exchange that would have resulted in a lot of lost land and lost elk hunting opportunity. Whether or not us being involved made a difference, I don't know, but some of the folk hacking on me here and on FB seemed to think it would.


Not sure what those questions have to do with any of this. It comes across as if you are implying that I go to places, promote it to the masses to a degree that pisses people off, then leave it as some sort of carnage in the ditch while I move on to some other new location that I can eff up. Might not be what you are implying, but given the context of this thread, that is how it comes across to me. I'll add some additional areas beyond those you mention above.

I hunt the same OTC elk hunt areas every time I go to CO. I've promoted the west slope OTC CO elk hunt many times. People saw the episodes, they see my truck at trailheads, they see me staying in hotels in Hotchkiss, etc. If schedules are not conflicting, I will be there again in November for the 3rd season, doing the same thing. If other people are there, so be it. I hunt the same deer area in CO and it is no secret. Next year, if I have enough points, I'll be right back there, on the same burn as we have filmed three other times.

I had no problem showing people some very obvious landmarks of where I archery hunt in general units in MT. I plan on hunting that same area every year that I have a general MT archery tag. Whenever people ask about Unit 16E in NM, I always help them, even though it is one of my three choices every year.

Guys bitched when I hunted a deer area in Montana in 2012, even going so far as calling me and telling me so. I'll never go back there, as I'm tired of the pissing and moaning that came from that experience. I didn't shoot a deer and hardly saw any deer. Yet, the person who called felt this 100 mile stretch of mountains was some supposed honey hole that was his.

Quite honestly, I've tired of the bullshit.

I find it funny how the world wants advocates for public land hunting, or at least until it happens to be in some general part a state where they might hunt. Then all of a sudden there is plenty wrong about that public land hunting advocacy. Funny how the world wants non-residents to come to the cause of public lands at the Federal level, but when someone tries to help them have better chances of success that person is somehow doing something bad.

It's not like I gave GPS coordinates or drainages or anything specific. Region 7 is over 14 million acres, with more than 4 million of that open to public hunting. There is, and always has been, a cap on non-resident deer tags for MT.

For people to be all pissed off over that causes me to question what the hell I was thinking when I developed a business plan with the mission of "to promote self-guided public land hunting by sharing information and experiences that enhance advocacy for public lands and the hunting on those lands." Knock yourself out guys. I struggle to find much benefit in more of my participation on this thread.

 

[8andcounting]

Id like to say thanks randy, for this website and all the other bs . You do A lot to help people out and I appreciate it . Thank you. Don't listen to the haters.

 

[BuzzH]

The reasons for SE Montana getting the attention it is, are many. The ability to shoot more than 1 deer. The fact that there are more deer there than many other areas of the State. The fact that Western Montana absolutely sucks for mule deer hunting. The fact that its easier to drive 80 mph down the interstate than it was in 1980 when the speed limit was 55 and your hunting truck was about to rattle to pieces going 70 mph. GPS, google earth, outfitters, leasing, the list goes on and on and on.

I do agree with Randy11, tjones, and shoots-straight as well though that people suck when it comes to honoring perhaps the oldest hunting code known to Montana. You don't go back to a spot, whether its public or private, without asking the person that showed you that spot first. I have never one time not honored that...ever.

I still say the largest culprit is Montana's "opportunity at all costs" mentality, OTC tags for Residents, and 11 weeks of brown its down...combined with over 1 million people and the MTFWP that manages via the same season structure as it did in 1954 (true story).

The times have changed and the MTFWP is stuck in the 50's...

 

[The Hedgehog]

Randy,

I appreciate your efforts and hard work. I'm not "hacking on you, bitching, or pissing and moaning." Went back and re-read what I wrote just to confirm. I do hope there is a difference between public hunting "advocacy" and spraying a fire hose of hunters all over pretty specific regions. The acreage numbers you're quoting sound huge, until you realize there's no limits on MT deer hunters and no limits to the entire state's allocated NR hunters, and 3700 permits for archery elk hunters, and limitless "opportunity/doe/cow" tags for super, duper long periods of time. The way deer/elk are managed in MT (particularly the SE) for "opportunity" will be apparent in the fall of 2017 after the place has been put on the map for both elk and deer, not just by your efforts. It's your place, as much as anybody else's, but I just don't understand what good it does to really put a target on places with all the infomercials/social media. It makes me realize how thankful we need to be for private lands, for if it weren't for private land around these areas, every single animal would be killed by our public land opportunity hunters.

I'd like to say, that's just my opinion, but it's not.

 

[mn taxidermist]

Greenhorn, you say you gave up on hunting SE in 2001 but you want to blame Randy for promoting the area. I'm quite sure he wasn't doing a tv show in those days.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I've hunted in eastern MT probably every year since 1980, and SE almost every year since 93. I gave up hunting mule deer there, in 2001. Where did I "blame"?

 

[BuzzH]

I personally can't imagine spending the time and money to hunt deer out of state, to visit the Custer area. I suppose everybody's idea of a quality experience is different. I gave up there in 2001, but did shoot a deer while elk hunting in 2011. Had my son there in November of 2013 and visited the same place you did mn taxidermist. Hiked 2 miles into a hiking only area on a weekday and saw 7 other hunters that morning, one of which shot a deer my son was prone, aiming at. Fun times. If your bag is hunting with crowds, and hoping for a top end buck that's around 5 years from his prime, maybe it's a top pick. Just being honest. It was great in the 90s.

Honest question, where does one go in Montana to get away from that on public land...in a place that actually has any deer?

Feel free to come hunt the area where I killed my first mule deer in 1981 (seeing 60 a day wasn't uncommon)...I haven't seen a live, or dead mule deer there in 9 years. I suppose you could still say you're mule deer hunting there, the same season exists, mule deer are still legal to kill, and you'll have the place to yourself as there aren't any people hunting mule deer there anymore.

That's what its come to...and yet, people still believe that its the "good old days" in Montana.

I believe this is where a lot of the problem comes from, there just is NOT the game there used to be in vast areas of the State. Places that historically had great mule deer hunting around Missoula (Rock Creek, Drummond, Hall, Avon, Ovando, Fish Creek, Dirty Ike, Gold Creek, Chamberlain, Rice Ridge, etc. etc. etc.) those areas are a waste of time to hunt for mule deer now. They used to be fantastic. Other areas, like the dry range, tenderfoot, Smith river used to be 2 mule deer bucks per hunter, now it isn't worth a chit.

That's the problem, if there was better, or in some cases, ANY kind of decent hunting in more of the State, there wouldn't be so much pressure applied to what's left.

I agree 100% that its sad what its come to...but its just the reality. Most of Montana has degraded a lot since I started hunting there in 1979/80.

The rest of what little remains is going to be in the same boat here shortly...what they're doing is not sustainable, something has to give, and it will. Already seen it happen in area after area after area.

 

[grandejuan]

I used to hunt south of Poplar along the south side of river. I knew an old farmer (now deceased) who let me and my few friend's hunt his land. There were lots of whitetails and antelope (on draw) and some mule deer in the coulees. I could buy literally all the B tags I wanted for whitetails. We would occasionally get a nice whitetail buck, the mulies were a bit harder to find, usually requiring a drive thru the brush in the sides and bottom of the coulees. We often had natives from the rez north of the river come by our camp wanting us to pay them to take us onto the rez and poach antelope (put our Montana tags on the poached lopes was the deal). There were even pheasants in his alfalfa fields. We wouldn't do the Indian thing, and shooting does was less fun than shooting rabbits. We didn't see any hunters, resident or non. The rez is a checkerboard of private sections and rez sections. We'd go into Poplar to restock food occasionally, but that was it. I know this screed is not about SE Montana, but there was little pressure then (20 years ago). We got tired of the culling does and the bucks were getting kind of passé. When my friend passed his land was leased to a guy in Wolfpoint/Florida who never returned calls. Thus endith the story. There are other places besides the Custer. FWIW. GJ

 

[BuzzH]

Another fun fact about my spot and mule deer...in the last 9 years, I've seen 800% more mountain lions than mule deer (seen 8 lions 0 mule deer).

Yet, the FWP in its infinite wisdom, still allows 11 weeks of antlered buck mule deer hunting. How do they justify that? I mean seriously, the mule deer where I hunt are extinct, should be on the ESL.

At the same time, though, lions are on a strict quota under "trophy cat regulations"...

Just not sure what cracker jack box the wildlife biology comes from to justify that cluster-shag.

 

[BigHornRam]

Zero mule deer in 9 years in "your spot". Please!! Climb a little Buzz and you will find mule deer.