Question for the ologist here

[Dinkshooter]

I was shooting the chit tonight with a friend about how the light winter here in Colorado was so far. We were discussing watching bucks on the winter range and it SUCKS so far this year. The deer are scattered still clear up the quakies and timber.

So my question was..........................does this affect pregnacy rates in areas like this that usually have weather and concetrate deer on the winter range before or during the rut?

 

[elk_hunter]

My guess is the light winter wouldn't adversely affect them. Even if they aren't transitioning as fast to wintering grounds, they should be able to rut, eat and sleep without issue. I thought they moved to lower elevations 1) with hunting pressure or 2) when too much snow covered their food sources.

 

[Dinkshooter]

I am just wondering if they don't get knocked up cause they are spread WAY out still and they don't get together so easily as they would on the winter range. Sumer/fall range is 3 times the size of the winter range.

 

[MTbrittany]

It would seem to me that the same amount of does would be bred, but more would be bred by younger bucks. When they are all yarded up, the dominant buck can watch dozens of does...but when they're spread out, the big bucks can't be everywhere at once, and so the younger deer get a chance to breed. Potentially, more fawns might be born with inferior horn genetics.

 

[Oak]

I'm no expert on the subject, but I don't think it will have much of an effect. You may get a greater number of bucks doing the breeding, but the does will get bred. If you only had one month to get it done, you woundn't let a little warm weather get in the way, would you? If there are does around, there are bucks around.

Buzz and I were talking about this when we were hunting the 60 degree weather the third season. People talk about the rut being delayed when the weather is warm, but I don't think that's the case. The bucks are just more nocturnal, and we're not seeing them as frequently. I think the phenomenon of "good weather" causing the rut to start is actually a case of the weather causing the does to feed during the day more, therefore causing the bucks to be more active, and all deer being more easily seen by hunters (snow on the ground). If the weather is warm, the rut is still happening, but the deer are not as visible.

I'm open to hearing other opinions....

 

[DRAFTSTUD]

My take on it is with the Deer spread out during the Rut you would have more Mortality on the larger Mule Deer Bucks that have been through a Rutting season. They would seem to have to spend more energy chasing Does and fending off the Small Buck who know they are suppose to be doing something, they just don't quite know what.
This would leave the Larger Bucks weak when a Winter storm hits later in the year, so the Gene Pool would be weaker in the following years if these stressed out Bucks die. Any Takers? John

 

[mtmiller]

...but when they're spread out, the big bucks can't be everywhere at once, and so the younger deer get a chance to breed. Potentially, more fawns might be born with inferior horn genetics.

Let's not mix up age with genetics. Just 'cause it's a young buck doens't mean that it doesn't have superior genes. Also remember he is only 1/2 the equation.

 

[noharleyyet]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Oak's take but will hold judgement until Elkchaser 'ways' in.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

I was in Colorado for the 2nd rifle season (Oct 19) this year, and I was amazed at the number of does and bucks I saw transitioning from the high country down to where our camp was. I watched quite a few nice 4 points horning brush (naturally on someone else's private property) and doing the "bluff walk" with other bucks. We got some snow and there were fresh tracks everywhere.
While I didn't see any bucks actually mating, they were still hanging with the does. Again, I'm no expert -but aren't there 3 or so distinct rutting peroids, allowing all the does to be bred by the appropreate buck? Wait for the right weather to hit and I bet the does will still get bread by the bigger bucks.

 

[shortside]

mtmiller - AMEN! to that!

I have heard the assumption that younger bucks pass on inferior genetics so many times that it makes me want to puke! I wish I knew where it started, but it is total B.S. Age has nothing to do with genetics, it only allows you to see antler genetics potential.

This is often used as an excuse to shoot smaller bucks, usually young bucks that should be given a chance to grow up.

"mtmiller:Let's not mix up age with genetics. Just 'cause it's a young buck doesn't mean that it doesn't have superior genes. Also remember he is only 1/2 the equation."


shortside

 

[MTbrittany]

I have heard the assumption that younger bucks pass on inferior genetics so many times that it makes me want to puke!

I never said that. Go back and read my post more carefully. I use the word "Potentially" meaning exactly that....I never said younger deer have inferior genetics.

When a giant buck breed does, they get genetics from him.

When a generic 4x4 breeds does, they get genetics from him.

When a generic 4x4 breeds does, he could be 2.5 years old or 7.5 years old.

When the deer aren't yarded up, more generic 4x4s get to breed does.

Thus, there is potential for bad genetics to be passed on.

 

[MattK]

MTbrittany- What is to say an old tough generic 4x4 won't do more breeding than a young HUGE 5x5 genetically superior buck even in winter range? I don't believe the argument that the genetically superior bucks ( antler size, B & C scoring) breed does is correct. Some old ratty looking short tined strong bastard will probably breed as much, maybe more than the tall tined long beamed buck who has great genetics. Even a spike gets to breed sometimes...

 

[MTbrittany]

But large antlers are indicative of other superior physical traits, such as physical shape, body size, etc. So larger antlered deer should be better able to fight off other bucks.

 

[TLC]

know you're talking about mule deer here and not about whitetails. but have a feeling they work about the same. all animals(does) that come into heat will be bred. may not be by the most superior buck, but they will still get bred. and if they are not in heat during the first breeding season, they will come in during the second breeding season. as far as inferior genes and such. like it or not, it is a proven fact that some deer have inferior genes. not saying that because a buck has a small rack at age 1 1/2 years that he won't grow a nice one later on. but the chances are smaller for that too happen. but in addition to the genes, they have to have adequate nourishment from the foods that they eat or they will end up on the "short" end of the stick when it comes to antler growth. we raise cattle on the farm, and we try to get a bull that throws smaller calves that grow up nice and large. so far, because of the gene pools, we have ended up with just that. not sure if I added anything important to the discussion, but that's the way it is, dec 5th, 2007.

 

[MTbrittany]

TLC,

Do you use a bull that will throw a smaller calf for the cow's first birth only or for all succesive births? I believe your point is valid, that a critter can be born small and grow up big, but what applies to domestic animals because of selective breeding programs and such, does not always apply in nature.

I'm not trying to make enemies on this forum in any way, but I am sticking up for my initial premise that when yarded up, the dominant buck will breed more does than when they are all spread out.

 

[TLC]

MT, we use the same bull all the time. mainly because when we move the cows from one place to another, we don't have to worry as much about whether the cow will be OK if they are throwing smaller calves.

as far as your point, I agree. by simple addition and subtraction, if the deer are herded up, the superior buck will breed more does, but even then, smaller bucks will breed some of the does. the big guy can only hit so many of them even when they are herded up.

 

[mtmiller]

It would seem to me that the same amount of does would be bred, but more would be bred by younger bucks. When they are all yarded up, the dominant buck can watch dozens of does...but when they're spread out, the big bucks can't be everywhere at once, and so the younger deer get a chance to breed. Potentially, more fawns might be born with inferior horn genetics.

I never said that. Go back and read my post more carefully. I use the word "Potentially" meaning exactly that....I never said younger deer have inferior genetics.

Maybe I am wrong, but as I read your post britt, you compared "young" deer and "inferior" genes. If the defense is "potentially" and "might", then yes...I will buy into it.

There are some monster 2 and 3's out there, but many would agree, it is still an "inferior gene" to many.

Possibly we are on the same page here and just debating symantics,?

 

[MTbrittany]

The point is, with a younger deer, you never know what kind of genetics the buck holds because they haven't yet exhibited their full antler growth potential; it's a wild card.

When a superior-gened buck, say 5.5 years old, 180"+, and 250lbs meets a inferior-gened buck of the same age, say 150" and 180lbs, the superior buck will get to breed the doe.

When a superior-gened buck, that because of age is superior in genetics only, say 2.5 years old, 150lbs, meets an inferior-gened buck, that because of age is inferior in genetics only, say 2.5 years old, 150 lbs...who wins? The inferior-gened buck atleast has a shot.

Obviously, there are exceptions to every rule. But generally, deer cannot put on a significant amount of weight (ie strength), without age no matter what the genetics. Thus, when young bucks compete for a doe, there is potential for the inferior buck to breed.

Not only that, but when a superior-gened young buck, say 2.5 years old, 150lbs meets an inferior-gened buck of 5.5 years and 180lbs, the inferior buck wins out.

Are there exceptions to that? Sure, small-horned big-bodied bucks exist, as do small-bodied big-horned bucks...but generally, big horns and big bodies are found on the same buck.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Since I'm not a biologist, and I don't get much of a chance to be around deer when they're actively breeding, I'll have to defer to those who do. Two ranchers (one in Calif. and the other in Montana) and one outfitter (in Colorado) have all told me that it's not nessesarily the big buck with the giant rack that breeds most of the does. It's the mid-aged, strong and burly upstart buck with all the energy that becomes the master breeder. He doesn't breed ALL of the does on the mountain, but he breeds all he can find at the peak of that particular doe's estrous cycle. This is the buck that runs off all those 2,3 and 4 year old bucks that we all see tending groups of does and fawns in late October/early November.
These 3 guys tell me that the older those other REALLY big, wide and tall-racked muleys get, the more they persue a secluded existance and work hard at not being seen untill late winter. It's not that these older bucks don't rut, it's just that the urge isn't as strong as it was, and there's that testoserone-crazed, younger (stronger) buck just waiting to throw down on him the second he even thinks about it.
My question to those guys was "What happens if the master breeding buck gets shot? Are the does and yearling fawns then bred by spikes and forkedhorn bucks?" They said that even though you might see these smaller bucks chasing like crazy (-maybe even a little 'ride in the saddle'), the does are stiil being bred by a replacement breeder-buck when it counts most after those smaller bucks(inferior?-not really, simply immature) are run off.

 

[mtmiller]

Maybe it is the "shirker bucks" we need to worry about?