Caribou Gear

Predator Contest?

elkmagnet said:
I do not see a predator derby as being less ethical then shooting predators? Just as being bad publicity.
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Sister #5 – Non-Frivolous Use
In North America, individuals may legally kill certain wild animals under strict guidelines for food and fur, self-defense and property protection. Laws restrict against the casual killing of wildlife merely for antlers, horns or feathers.

Sister #7 – Scientific Management
Sound science is essential to managing and sustaining North America’s wildlife and habitats. For example, researchers put radio collars on elk to track the animals’ movements to determine where elk give birth and how they react to motor vehicles on forest roads.
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Utilizing the 7 sisters, show me how a derby follows the NAM or most importantly: the ethical treatment of wildlife. The main purpose of the derby is to eliminate a large number of carnivores under the belief that it will help ungulate numbers, despite what rafts of science shows us.

There's a big difference between a derby where a circus or carnival mentality prevails and the average predator hunt. The ethics of derby's, bounties, etc have all been found to be lacking by a large number of Americans based on our past management of carnivores. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that these kinds of events don't pass the smell test where the ethical treatment of wildlife is involved.
 
Ben Lamb said:
Utilizing the 7 sisters, show me how a derby follows the NAM or most importantly: the ethical treatment of wildlife. The main purpose of the derby is to eliminate a large number of carnivores under the belief that it will help ungulate numbers, despite what rafts of science shows us.

There's a big difference between a derby where a circus or carnival mentality prevails and the average predator hunt. The ethics of derby's, bounties, etc have all been found to be lacking by a large number of Americans based on our past management of carnivores. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that these kinds of events don't pass the smell test where the ethical treatment of wildlife is involved.
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No you tell me how its unethical and doesn't fit in with NAM.
To me hunting ethics are between me, my government and the animal.
#1 is it legal?
2 is it fair chase?
3 can I dispatch the animal with minimal pain and suffering?
I think these all fit under the 7 rules better than trapping. Should we distance ourselves from trappers? I trap its much harder on k9s than a stupid derby.
There is a large number of Americans who find all hunting to be lacking in ethics. What's your point?
It is obvious you have some ethical issues with this type of hunt. I can respect that without understanding it. Just different points of view.
 
elkmagnet said:
No you tell me how its unethical and doesn't fit in with NAM.
To me hunting ethics are between me, my government and the animal.
#1 is it legal?
2 is it fair chase?
3 can I dispatch the animal with minimal pain and suffering?
I think these all fit under the 7 rules better than trapping. Should we distance ourselves from trappers? I trap its much harder on k9s than a stupid derby.
There is a large number of Americans who find all hunting to be lacking in ethics. What's your point?
It is obvious you have some ethical issues with this type of hunt. I can respect that without understanding it. Just different points of view.
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It doesn't fit in with the 7th sister: Scientific Management of Wildlife. In fact, if we were to follow the science, we'd change the coyote's status from Predator to Game animal and issue licenses for them. If the goal is population control, again the science says something completely different than what the stated goals of the derby will lead too. Increase pressure on Coyotes generally leads to increased fecundity in female coyotes & increased litter size - increasing the overall population of coyotes.

Profiting from the death of a wild animal violates #5 of the 7 seven sisters. While we console ourselves with "it's only a song dog," the truth remains that many are killing Coyotes for profit, in violation of the NAM (Prizes, etc are all considered profit not only by the ethically arrogant like myself, but by the IRS as well).

I really have no problem with coyote hunting or predator hunting. It's the derby's that give us a bad name. As someone who spends a considerable amount of my time defending hunters against the anti-hunting crowd/animal rights activists, stuff like this makes it very difficult to build relationships & foster greater understanding and acceptance of hunting.
 
Ben Lamb said:
It doesn't fit in with the 7th sister: Scientific Management of Wildlife. In fact, if we were to follow the science, we'd change the coyote's status from Predator to Game animal and issue licenses for them.
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Why does the science say we are over harvesting?

Ben Lamb said:
If the goal is population control, again the science says something completely different than what the stated goals of the derby will lead too. Increase pressure on Coyotes generally leads to increased fecundity in female coyotes & increased litter size - increasing the overall population of coyotes.
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The way I look at this response is you are saying science supports my ability to hunt and trap k9s at will without fear of doing harm to the population.
In fact I believe the current system used to manage coyotes falls right in line with (7 scientific management) we are currently managing them in a way that we will be sure to have a viable population of coyotes in the future. You just described the science that supports this.
Ben Lamb said:
Profiting from the death of a wild animal violates #5 of the 7 seven sisters. While we console ourselves with "it's only a song dog," the truth remains that many are killing Coyotes for profit, in violation of the NAM (Prizes, etc are all considered profit not only by the ethically arrogant like myself, but by the IRS as well).
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so I can kill a coyote for its fur but I cannot enter a contest that I have almost no chance of winning sounds like a murky area to me
Ben Lamb said:
I really have no problem with coyote hunting or predator hunting. It's the derby's that give us a bad name. .
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Its funny how the proverbial maze of life takes us to the same conclusion by way of very different paths.

I agree we do disagree.
 
elkmagnet said:
I fully understand and agree with most of what you are saying about hunting contest. Now my question to you is how will Jr and shoots improve things by arguing their position on this subject over the Internet.
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This was a couple pages back. Just sayin.
 
elkmagnet said:
haha but this was a wolf hunting contest not a killing contest.

You are now wording your replies like a bunny hugger. Trying to get emotional responses? You forgot to add what organization you are with so we know who to donate to

This contest is likely to have ramifications that I will not like. But it is not breaking any laws and I don't believe we should have any laws to stop such contests
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How many coyotes were released after the event? Don't kid yourself, this was a killing contest, with the winners being those who killed the most female coyotes, and the largest female.

They said it not me. I'm a founding father of MSA,
http://www.montanasportsmenalliance.com/
On the BOD for Ravalli County Fish & Wildlife Ass.
http://www.rcfwa.org/
Montana Trappers Ass.
Other's as well.

Donate to any of those groups you can't go wrong.;)
 
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elkmagnet said:
This statement shows a lack of knowledge for the area and wolf hunting.

There is a huge difference between going in to the Frank in September and harvesting an elk(My opinion of the best time to harvest) and going into the Frank In January /February (my opinion of the best time to harvest) and harvesting a wolf.
We are talking about a very rugged remote area that receives a lot of snow. To steep for snowmobiles if they were allowed which they are not. No roads. no one I know is taking stock animals in there between December and March.
They still haven't found an entire family that crashed a plane there a month ago.

If you have ever been around wolves you would have mucho respect for the guys who actually get one down.
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Spot on. Anyone against the hired hand should go give it a shot at getting back in there to attempt to hunt those wolves. Talk to the guys who have lived in Salmon their entire lives and see what they say about the wolves. I've talked to some very level headed gentlemen and they don't speak off emotion they speak from the facts. I agree with most of what you say also elkmagnet.
 
You can't argue with people who resort to emotional, illogical arguments. The arguments against predator contests and the hiring of professional hunters is not based on management, its based on emotion. If they didn't use these two things they would find something else and appeal to a sense of outrage about these poor animals being killed. It saddens me to see hunter making the same type of arguments as antis.

Predator need to be controlled, Wildlife agencies cannot allow the fluctuations that the natural predator-prey relationship result in, given the presence of the large human population on the planet. Just because predators are not eaten is not justification for a ban on hunting them. When animals are classified as varmints there is usually a good reason. What we need is not a ban on contests or paid hunters, but rather have our hunting organizations point out where our food comes from and how illogical the arguments of anti-hunter have become.

I'll stop there, because if we have to point out what should be obvious to hunters and/or ranchers then there really is no future for hunting.
 
cantgetdrawn said:
You can't argue with people who resort to emotional, illogical arguments. The arguments against predator contests and the hiring of professional hunters is not based on management, its based on emotion. If they didn't use these two things they would find something else and appeal to a sense of outrage about these poor animals being killed. It saddens me to see hunter making the same type of arguments as antis.

Predator need to be controlled, Wildlife agencies cannot allow the fluctuations that the natural predator-prey relationship result in, given the presence of the large human population on the planet. Just because predators are not eaten is not justification for a ban on hunting them. When animals are classified as varmints there is usually a good reason. What we need is not a ban on contests or paid hunters, but rather have our hunting organizations point out where our food comes from and how illogical the arguments of anti-hunter have become.

I'll stop there, because if we have to point out what should be obvious to hunters and/or ranchers then there really is no future for hunting.
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Some of the guys you are referring to were in the mix and instrumental in getting the wolf delisted. Just sayin,,,,,,
 
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