OTC AZ Archery Units closed
- Thread starter Pedropistola
- Start date
BlakeA
Well-known member
Here is an example:
From one of Brain Call's AZ IG posts:
"Whats not to like about spot and stalk hunts in warm weather in January with an over the counter tag!?"
"Lots of stalks every day-lots of small game opportunities when deer hunting is slow and the weather is GORGEOUS!"
"But if the coues aren't your thing, the mule deer hunting is excellent"
"And checkout Arizona--I've got a podcast dropping on Tuesday that'll line out all Arizona draw and OTC tag opportunities that you oughta take advantage of. I think AZGFD is doing an EXCELLENT job balancing game populations with hunter opportunities and I applaud their work"
As usual, lots of tags of people, gear, referrals of friend's podcasts, seminar's, and products within the post.
That one got 1,535 likes and easily double that in views.
I do not know Brian and will likely never meet the guy. I'm going to go out on a limb and "assume" here but unlike Randy, Brian makes his living on this. He has to pay his bills with the money he takes in off of his content. When it is all about money, like in Brian's case (making his living), anything goes and whatever it takes to make more.
Good for him. We live in the greatest country in the world that gives everyone an opportunity to make money.
I do wonder though if he would still be doing everything he does hunting wise if social media and podcasts did not exist. But that's just me.
If you do not like it, don't support it. This is just how it is now and will only continue to grow going forward. It definitely sucks but it is what it is.
If I'm way off with my assumption of Brian and this is just a hobby side gig for him for some extra walking around money please correct me because like I said I do not know him and I'm just assuming from what I have seen/read/heard.
From one of Brain Call's AZ IG posts:
"Whats not to like about spot and stalk hunts in warm weather in January with an over the counter tag!?"
"Lots of stalks every day-lots of small game opportunities when deer hunting is slow and the weather is GORGEOUS!"
"But if the coues aren't your thing, the mule deer hunting is excellent"
"And checkout Arizona--I've got a podcast dropping on Tuesday that'll line out all Arizona draw and OTC tag opportunities that you oughta take advantage of. I think AZGFD is doing an EXCELLENT job balancing game populations with hunter opportunities and I applaud their work"
As usual, lots of tags of people, gear, referrals of friend's podcasts, seminar's, and products within the post.
That one got 1,535 likes and easily double that in views.
I do not know Brian and will likely never meet the guy. I'm going to go out on a limb and "assume" here but unlike Randy, Brian makes his living on this. He has to pay his bills with the money he takes in off of his content. When it is all about money, like in Brian's case (making his living), anything goes and whatever it takes to make more.
Good for him. We live in the greatest country in the world that gives everyone an opportunity to make money.
I do wonder though if he would still be doing everything he does hunting wise if social media and podcasts did not exist. But that's just me.
If you do not like it, don't support it. This is just how it is now and will only continue to grow going forward. It definitely sucks but it is what it is.
If I'm way off with my assumption of Brian and this is just a hobby side gig for him for some extra walking around money please correct me because like I said I do not know him and I'm just assuming from what I have seen/read/heard.
FlatlanderAZ
Well-known member
I don't think this is the kind of place where you get banned for simply providing information. If that picture was accompanied by an accusation of some sort, I could see there being an issue. That being said, @Big Fin has demonstrated thick skin and appears to be connected with his audience in a different way from others. Its no secret that a number of well known hunting personalities gather with AZGFD personnel in southern AZ each January. I don't think they feel like they have anything to hide.
If that gathering was sponsored by the department and those personalities are compensated with money or resources by the department, I think its fair for us to know it, which we will.
BackofBeyond
Well-known member
I'm sure I remember watching some of Randy's hunts in SE Montana, and he would list an economic development counsel for SE Montana as one of the sponsors of the episode. I vaguely remember the same on one of the cous hunt videos.
Not sure how much more transparency you'd like.
Not sure how much more transparency you'd like.
I’ve been on the road four of the last five days and I now have a few minutes on my lunch break to chime in.
I asked AZ G&F if they were OK with me telling the world that I am the “influencer” their ad agency has chosen to work with for coordinating the hunting part of the AZ G&F communications plan. For confidentiality reasons implied in contracts, they did not want to give my name, nor would their ad agency. I have no concerns about them letting the world know that we are the group coordinating that project, and they have given me permission to tell that we are that group referred to in the email.
So here goes.
We have a contract with the ad agency that does a lot of work for AZ G&F. Our contract is to produce directed video content, hire other media platforms, and use our media production skills and video/podcast platforms to create content that promotes small game hunting, quail and dove hunting, the AZ G&F landowner relations program, help raise awareness of non-resident youth licenses, promote archery javelina opportunity and show table fare of javelina as part of a bigger “hunt for food” effort, OTC archery Coues deer, waterfowl hunting, the conservation work being done by AZ G&F, show the total value of an Arizona non-resident hunting license, explain how AZ G&F policy works as it relates to population management, help raise funds for access and habitat, promote thee AZ Big Game Super Raffle, make non-residents aware of how the AZ draw process works and the deadlines for such.
We have implemented a plan that uses our platforms and other key media platforms. When helpful, we contract with other groups to reach their audiences with the same message.
With the changes in mule deer hunts this coming season, a lot of the focus has been on the promotion work we have been hired to do, with some claiming that to be the cause for the changes in archery mule deer hunts. We’ve never promoted archery mule deer hunting while we have been there. Seeing the fluctuations of mule deer in AZ and knowing their policy for season adjustments related to fluctuations, I told them we would not be promoting OTC archery mule deer. They were good with that.
Even though they have mechanisms in place to protect the resource when archery hunts result in more than the “20% by archery” harvest threshold, I feel mule deer are far more susceptible to hunting pressure than Coues deer. Thus, we, and any group hunting with us as part of this contract, only hunted OTC archery Coues deer, in addition to the small game species we hunt.
You will notice that the AZ G&F folks who are in our content are all small game or landowner relations managers. The ad agency instructs us to coordinate with the department to include the personnel who can help deliver the message we have been asked to provide. Which personnel joins us is determined by the agency, which have been the department personnel who are in charge of small game, science, and landowner relations. Which media platforms join us is something I suggest to AZ G&F with them giving final approval to the rotation of those groups.
I’m very proud of the work we have done with AZ G&F and their ad agency. The plan AZ G&F and their agency have crafted is being looked at by other states. Since we started this, other states that are aware of this work have approached us to do the same. I have politely declined those other solicitations.
As I have stated on other recent threads on this forum, it is not a new idea for wildlife and tourism departments to use ad/communication firms to build communication and marketing plans. And to use those agencies to help departments implement those plans. It is done in fishing, hunting, non-game issues, public awareness, you name it. This is how it is done in the business world, with forward-thinking state agencies adopting many of these business tactics.
If you watch many of the TV shows, look to see how many of them are sponsored by tourism and game agencies. I have done this same work for other states at other times. Some shows have made it a huge part of their work. For us, it is less than 5% of our revenue.
The agency used by AZ G&F and the department itself, have a very precise plan for what they want to accomplish. They have done surveys and used other metrics to determine the results they hoped to achieve.
We have been talking over the last six months of whether or not we should promote hunting this fall, due to the impacts of the extended multi-year drought. Last year, we did not hunt rabbits due to the hemorrhagic disease that has hit rabbits hard in the southwest. That was by design, in response to a disease outbreak. We shifted from hunting Mearn’s quail to Gamble’s, due to the moisture patterns of 2020 that helped Gamble’s and hurt Mearn’s. That was by design, in response to drought.
One of the goals when we set out on this project was to see that the hundreds of unsold archery javelina tags got sold rather than a resource going unused. That finally happened last year. With all of that, we have been in discussions as to what degree of promotion is helpful and prudent in a year of extended drought such as this. I have told them I am happy to defer or discontinue the contract if that is what is best in this drought situation. We have agreed to see what the monsoon moisture is for this summer and make a decision in September.
So, with their permission, I am providing this information. I guess the podcast and social media world thinks this is some big mystery that somehow explains the long-standing AZ G&F policy for when they increase/decrease mule opportunity as it relates to population and harvest data. I'll post some details of how the policy guideline works.
I’m happy to have this out there for the world to see. I’m on the road for the next ten days, but I’ll try to chime in when I have a connection.
I asked AZ G&F if they were OK with me telling the world that I am the “influencer” their ad agency has chosen to work with for coordinating the hunting part of the AZ G&F communications plan. For confidentiality reasons implied in contracts, they did not want to give my name, nor would their ad agency. I have no concerns about them letting the world know that we are the group coordinating that project, and they have given me permission to tell that we are that group referred to in the email.
So here goes.
We have a contract with the ad agency that does a lot of work for AZ G&F. Our contract is to produce directed video content, hire other media platforms, and use our media production skills and video/podcast platforms to create content that promotes small game hunting, quail and dove hunting, the AZ G&F landowner relations program, help raise awareness of non-resident youth licenses, promote archery javelina opportunity and show table fare of javelina as part of a bigger “hunt for food” effort, OTC archery Coues deer, waterfowl hunting, the conservation work being done by AZ G&F, show the total value of an Arizona non-resident hunting license, explain how AZ G&F policy works as it relates to population management, help raise funds for access and habitat, promote thee AZ Big Game Super Raffle, make non-residents aware of how the AZ draw process works and the deadlines for such.
We have implemented a plan that uses our platforms and other key media platforms. When helpful, we contract with other groups to reach their audiences with the same message.
With the changes in mule deer hunts this coming season, a lot of the focus has been on the promotion work we have been hired to do, with some claiming that to be the cause for the changes in archery mule deer hunts. We’ve never promoted archery mule deer hunting while we have been there. Seeing the fluctuations of mule deer in AZ and knowing their policy for season adjustments related to fluctuations, I told them we would not be promoting OTC archery mule deer. They were good with that.
Even though they have mechanisms in place to protect the resource when archery hunts result in more than the “20% by archery” harvest threshold, I feel mule deer are far more susceptible to hunting pressure than Coues deer. Thus, we, and any group hunting with us as part of this contract, only hunted OTC archery Coues deer, in addition to the small game species we hunt.
You will notice that the AZ G&F folks who are in our content are all small game or landowner relations managers. The ad agency instructs us to coordinate with the department to include the personnel who can help deliver the message we have been asked to provide. Which personnel joins us is determined by the agency, which have been the department personnel who are in charge of small game, science, and landowner relations. Which media platforms join us is something I suggest to AZ G&F with them giving final approval to the rotation of those groups.
I’m very proud of the work we have done with AZ G&F and their ad agency. The plan AZ G&F and their agency have crafted is being looked at by other states. Since we started this, other states that are aware of this work have approached us to do the same. I have politely declined those other solicitations.
As I have stated on other recent threads on this forum, it is not a new idea for wildlife and tourism departments to use ad/communication firms to build communication and marketing plans. And to use those agencies to help departments implement those plans. It is done in fishing, hunting, non-game issues, public awareness, you name it. This is how it is done in the business world, with forward-thinking state agencies adopting many of these business tactics.
If you watch many of the TV shows, look to see how many of them are sponsored by tourism and game agencies. I have done this same work for other states at other times. Some shows have made it a huge part of their work. For us, it is less than 5% of our revenue.
The agency used by AZ G&F and the department itself, have a very precise plan for what they want to accomplish. They have done surveys and used other metrics to determine the results they hoped to achieve.
We have been talking over the last six months of whether or not we should promote hunting this fall, due to the impacts of the extended multi-year drought. Last year, we did not hunt rabbits due to the hemorrhagic disease that has hit rabbits hard in the southwest. That was by design, in response to a disease outbreak. We shifted from hunting Mearn’s quail to Gamble’s, due to the moisture patterns of 2020 that helped Gamble’s and hurt Mearn’s. That was by design, in response to drought.
One of the goals when we set out on this project was to see that the hundreds of unsold archery javelina tags got sold rather than a resource going unused. That finally happened last year. With all of that, we have been in discussions as to what degree of promotion is helpful and prudent in a year of extended drought such as this. I have told them I am happy to defer or discontinue the contract if that is what is best in this drought situation. We have agreed to see what the monsoon moisture is for this summer and make a decision in September.
So, with their permission, I am providing this information. I guess the podcast and social media world thinks this is some big mystery that somehow explains the long-standing AZ G&F policy for when they increase/decrease mule opportunity as it relates to population and harvest data. I'll post some details of how the policy guideline works.
I’m happy to have this out there for the world to see. I’m on the road for the next ten days, but I’ll try to chime in when I have a connection.
Yup. Same with Colorado Tourism.
No worries about getting banned for that. Post it up.
And if you want, feel free to share my posts here wherever it is in the internet universe that this discussion is happening.
For those interested in Arizona’s deer management policy guidelines for managing mule deer, here is the link - https://azgfd-portal-wordpress-pant...ve/AZ-Hunt-Guidelines-2018-2023_7-26-2019.pdf
From page 11 is the applicable section to the OTC mule deer hunts.
From page 11 is the applicable section to the OTC mule deer hunts.
Archery Over-the Counter Units (nonpermit-tag units): Archery hunt opportunity for units south of the Colorado River, without established harvest objectives, will be offered according to the table below. Archery deer harvest will generally be managed not to exceed 20% of the overall harvest in a unit (with the exception of alternative management units that do not have a January season or units that have only an archery and/or muzzleloader season). When the 3-year mean archery deer harvest exceeds 20% of the harvest for either species, the Wildlife Manager may recommend restrictions in archery hunt opportunity using any management action listed below. If the 3-year mean archery deer harvest is less than 10% of the total harvest, additional opportunity will be added incrementally until archery harvest is between 10–20% of the total deer take. Each region will offer a variety of season dates. These restrictions may result in archery seasons of varying lengths for any antlered deer, antlered mule deer, or antlered white-tailed deer.
If you don’t want to read the guidelines and would rather watch a video, here is a webcast they did in March that explains those policy guidelines and how they get applied to deer, in this case OTC mule deer.
BackofBeyond
Well-known member
I think the saying is "mic drop." Is that what the kids are saying these days?
Mallardsx2
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2015
- Messages
- 2,722
When I saw the "Hunting Public" show up in Arizona I knew it was going to be the beginning of the end. lol
Last year, HP put a video of them shooting a good buck about 50 yards from where I hunt on public ground in GA. That was fine but then they proceeded to show a hunt re-cap of them with the deer at the road with the only gas line marker on the entire place behind them.
So far this year there is 5 treestands within 200 yards of that spot and it is in a place on public land where I have never seen a hunter in the last 7 years. lol
They probobly are pretty nice guys and I will give it to them, they were hunting a good spot but I hope they dont intend to replicate those results in the next 10 years. lol
Showing hunting of public land on TV is a double edged sword.
Last year, HP put a video of them shooting a good buck about 50 yards from where I hunt on public ground in GA. That was fine but then they proceeded to show a hunt re-cap of them with the deer at the road with the only gas line marker on the entire place behind them.
So far this year there is 5 treestands within 200 yards of that spot and it is in a place on public land where I have never seen a hunter in the last 7 years. lol
They probobly are pretty nice guys and I will give it to them, they were hunting a good spot but I hope they dont intend to replicate those results in the next 10 years. lol
Showing hunting of public land on TV is a double edged sword.
QuazyQuinton
Well-known member
Wait, so you're saying Coues' deer aren't any fun to hunt, javelina are boring, quail are scarce, G&F personnel don't know what they're doing, and Hank Shaw's cooking is terrible, and you're just getting paid to tell us all how good it is? What a shift in my worldview!
FlatlanderAZ
Well-known member
Well, since you asked, the reply provided by Randy is a good start. There are no credits rolling at the end of a podcast to "vaguely remember". I think its fair for us to ask if all of the promotion of AZ is motivated by a contractual relationship much the same as knowing if a manufacturer is a sponsor. To me, this distinction is fair.
Also, the way these endeavors are funded is significant to AZ residents. Twice now in the last 10 years Don Peay and his supporters have attempted to establish a Utah Expo style auction tag system in our state. The latest attempt to do this was sold as an effort to generate money for an ad campaign to promote the virtues of hunting to the non-hunting public. The raffle/auction idea was thwarted by sportsmen, but there was wide support for a fund to help inform the non-hunting public. If this is the type of ad campaign the department has in mind, that is a far cry from what we were sold at the time.
Further, the changes to hunt structure have not only been to mule deer, more than a handful of coues deer units (Including some of the best in the state) have either had seasons shortened or were converted to a draw. The problem is certainly greater with mule deer, but it definitely isn't contained to that species. Its simple math, since this effort with Randy began, nonresident purchase of OTC deer permits has increased more than 40%. During that same time, the number of units open for OTC hunting has declined sharply.
Some may look at this and say the increased revenue is great news for Wild Things and Wild Places. Others will see that their engagement with those same Wild Things and Wild Places is eroding. There is a balance to all of this that we haven't figured out yet. But, money isn't the only answer. With 7.3 million people in AZ currently and 52,000 CA transplants coming every year compared with a meager 269,000 hunters, we cannot afford for the in-state population to lose much more opportunity to hunt before everyone loses interest. The adversaries already know that AZ is increasingly vulnerable and its a matter of time before more ballot initiatives appear. When that happens it won't matter how many NR youth licenses we sold or how many dudes from MT came down in January to escape the cold and chase javelina with a tag that a resident could have picked up via leftovers. Yes there were some unsold tags before and we want those hunts to be fully subscribed but the reality is that most of those tags were eventually picked up by residents, however, the department would much prefer to sell that tag at the NR price which is 8x what those tags sold to residents for.
This may sound like sour grapes, but I hope it helps shed some light on the mindset of the AZ resident. The state has changed immensely in the past 20 years and we are all still trying to figure out what the future looks like. I appreciate the transparency and dialogue on the topic.
R
rwc101
Guest
I'll make and release some "influencer" videos on Wyoming hunting. Applications will drop in no time.
RobertD
Well-known member
Thanks for the transparency Randy. Right on man. I really have no feeling beyond that one way or the other, aside from knowing I need to get down there and get my archery javelina tag one of these years.
Man, I bet old Mountain Priest is punching the air reading this thread
Man, I bet old Mountain Priest is punching the air reading this thread
D
Deleted member 40728
Guest
Those HP guys did the same thing in PA. Harvested a good buck then gave away several obvious landmarks and locations in the episode and harvest photos.
That particular area is as crowded as it will ever be now whereas before you could hunt all season without seeing another person.
Pucky Freak
Well-known member
AZGFD has obviously been successful in their marketing campaign. I wish it was easier to see the connection between promotion of public land hunting opportunities and successful advancement of NA conservation. The former was supposed to produce the latter, but instead what is obvious to all is a rapid decline in opportunities closely followed by rapid acceleration of costs. These trends got a major boost from COVID last year, and another major boost this year with the drought.
Americans of means are flush with cash from property value increases and/or direct government payments which could extend for years https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/7973747002. Everyone’s jumping in the tag pool.
The end game of NA big game hunting has always looks pretty depressing, but now it also looks to be a lot sooner than maybe we previously guessed. I fear that the volume of new conservation advocates is just going to be swallowed up by drop-offs in participation from lost opportunity before long.
The drought in AZ will eventually end and tag #s will bounce back up. However, I think the “hunt AZ every year while building points” as promoted by AZGFD won’t continue to be a reality for a lot of NR hunters.
Americans of means are flush with cash from property value increases and/or direct government payments which could extend for years https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/7973747002. Everyone’s jumping in the tag pool.
The end game of NA big game hunting has always looks pretty depressing, but now it also looks to be a lot sooner than maybe we previously guessed. I fear that the volume of new conservation advocates is just going to be swallowed up by drop-offs in participation from lost opportunity before long.
The drought in AZ will eventually end and tag #s will bounce back up. However, I think the “hunt AZ every year while building points” as promoted by AZGFD won’t continue to be a reality for a lot of NR hunters.
FlatlanderAZ
Well-known member
Excellent post. Thanks for contributing. The hunt big game in AZ every year boat is rounding the harbor. The impact of closing one unit to otc opportunity dominoes the pressure into another until one by one the opportunity is gone and they are all draw only.
This leads to a question of soul searching for all of us and especially influencers like @Big Fin. When conservation was revolutionized and hunters became the primary standard bearers for restoring wildlife they specifically worked against market hunting because they knew commercial exploitation of the resource would be its demise. Today, with all of the content available, have we moved away from the intent of those tenants in spirit even though we don’t violate them directly? In other words, are we really helping the future of wild things and wild places by hyper promoting the specific opportunities available through mass media?
It’s a tough question and is a lot at stake. I don’t know the right answer.
T
timmy
Guest
The reality hunting in the west is on its way out. Try to find a camping spot in a campground. Getting harder, soon it will be reservations for a campsite like a hotel. Then they will do environmental impact on wildlife and you will have to get a permit or reservation to hike. Tags will all be limited, covid sped the process up influencers put the peddle to the floor. We will turn into the European model of pay to hunt. That’s dooms day scenario but unfortunately that seems to be the way we are heading. Social media was the boot on the throat of public hunting.
We are loving it to death.
We are loving it to death.
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RobertD
Well-known member
Really well said. I'm eternally optimistic but you raise points that deserve to be thought about.
