'Normal' society, but hear more from the 'tails'??

[1_pointer]

With regard to most issues that affect a large population I think the Normal (Bell) curve gives an accurate aproximation of where our stance relies on an issue.(see below)

Using the issue of wolves and this board as an example. Some what to get rid of them completely (far right tail). Others prefer that they are not managed (far left tail). While the majority (~95%) fall in between, but not exactly in the middle. If this is true, why do we hear more from the 'tails' (extremists) than those under the 'normal' portion of the curve? Are the 'normal' people just too apathetic to make their point? This should be easier considering they are the largest portion of the population. Or are they counting on the two extreme views to cancel eachother out so that middle ground is reached?

My reason for asking this, is that I've always wondered why there are groups with a moderate view that are successful at getting things done. Is it the lack of emotional appeal? Or is it that for most issues the 'gray area' causes too much discontent within the organization?

 

[Ithaca 37]

"with a moderate view that are successful at getting things done"

Do you mean "are" or "are not"?

 

[1_pointer]

What I meant to say was...

"My reason for asking this, is that I've always wondered why there are not groups with a moderate view that are successful at getting things done."

 

[JoseCuervo]

I am not sure that many of the issues are best approximated by Normal distributions, as I think to have the vast majority, they have NO opinion, so you can't assign their opinion a value. I think it may be like the image above, where it is bimodal, with the outlyers being the ONLY opinions on some issues.

As far as why the moderates don't be more effective, nobody ever seems to have a passion for the middle of the road. That is the same as not having a passion.

Additionally, I think we are seeing the benefits of a single person and a single issue, at moving things forward. We can argue all day on who is doing more for the environment, Jon Marvel or the Nature Conservancy, but the bottom line for Habitat per $$$ spent, I think Marvel would win. Additionally, all the breaching on the Lower Snake was a single man (Reed Burkholder, I think), who became passionate about it.

The only thing that happens in the Middle of the Road is a bunch of tire tracks get imprinted on your forehead...

 

[1_pointer]

Gunner- I think you graph shows the expression of the views, but am not sure that it accounts for the views. I agree that middle of the road may mean less passion or lack of opinion, but that in itself is an opinion. Just as doing nothing is a management decision. The tire track analogy, while partially correct, is distressing for me. With many issues, the middle of the road makes the larger number of the population happy. However, due to the lack of passion, which I see as apathy, the views from the tails gets railroaded through.

I wonder if in this society we are somewhat conditioned to expect/react to only the tails point of view being expressed. Our political system has worked in this manner, quite successfully, for some time. During the Clinton administration the pendelum swung somewhat to the left, but the last three years have seen the reverse under GW.

 

[JoseCuervo]

1-Pt,

The only way you can find the middle of the road, is to measure in from the fog lines on the extreme outer edges of the road. You can't find the middle from being in the middle. If you have the extremes, then it makes the middle be more palatable.

However, I think your Clinton analogy is incorrect, in that Clinton WAS a Middle of the Road guy, as he abandonend the Left. GWBush is a Middle of the Road guy, as he is not catering to the Right, as he only caters to the Oil Industry.

The worst nightmare for the GOP part is to have the Far Right make speeches at their conventions, and go after Abortion or similar Right agendas. The Demos also have problems when the Far Left starts making progress. Right now, John Kerry is looking strong, as Howard Dean is making the Middle of the Road be an option for Kerry to stand.

But as for your organizations, I don't know that I would be joining the National Middle of The Road Foundation, where their goal was to "make everybody happy". So, instead, I find single issue groups, with a limited scope, and help/join them, so they can make a difference on the single issues I care about. If I care about enough "single issues", then I get My Own Private Idaho just the way I like it...

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So, instead, I find single issue groups, with a limited scope, and help/join them, so they can make a difference on the single issues I care about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I follow that train of thought well. But around here, SI, you can be mis-labeled because of the Seven Degrees of Relationship that some try to tie to certain organizations.

 

[JoseCuervo]

1_Ptr...

And also, how do you determine where the middle of the road actually is?

For example, on Salmon Recovery, the Middle of the Road is to breach the 4 Lower Snake River Dams. The extremes are to do nothing and allow the Salmon to go extinct, or on the other extreme end of the spectrum, is to breach ALL the Columbia and Snake River Dams, resulting in Salmon everywhere.

So obviously, the breaching of the 4 Lower dams IS the Middle of the Road, and that is the opinion the Vast Majority of ALL people have....

 

[Ten Bears]

GRINNER, you do paint the issues in your own light, don't you.

 

[JoseCuervo]

TEn,

I would certainly hope that I paint the picture in my own light, anything else would be irresponsible of me.

But, it is also obvious that everybody with a Salmon tag or a fishing license in their pocket would likely want MORE salmon in the river, so therefore, my belief is the majority of the distribution +/-3 sigma, would prefer to have the dams breached. It is only the extremists who want the Salmon extinct OR the other dams on the Columbia and Snake breached.

Do you really believe that people with fishing licenses and Salmon tags would prefer NOT to have Salmon swimming in Idaho's rivers?

 

[1_pointer]

So, Gunner is a "middle of the roader"?!?!

Good point, is that often times one may percieve themselves as being moderate but viewed as an extremist by others. On many issues (grazing), I feel that I have somewhat of moderate view, but many here think I'm some wacked out, glue sniffing, latte swilling, Birkenstock wearing, eco-nazi. OK, so some of that's true, but I'm not saying which...

But I think that may be why there are not 'middle of the road' organizations. Though they are the largest part of the populations, their views cover the largest part of the spectrum as well. This allows for too great a disparity of differences in point of view.

 

[JoseCuervo]

1-Ptr,

On the grazing issue, I do think you are an extremist, as you have repeatedley said some grazing can be beneficial. You are definitely an extremist on that issue, hand in hand with the rest of the Welfare Ranchers. You are just one more cow apologising, in-bred, cousin marrying, Copenhagen dipping, Hamm's drinking, Justin wearing, '75 International Flatbed 1-Ton driving, Welfare Ranching supporter.

On Welfare Ranching the extremes are to allow a tiny bit of grazing for resource management on one side, and the other far extreme is to remove all Welfare Ranchers from the land AND bankrupt them by siezing every asset they own in order to pay to rehabilitate the land they have overgrazed for generations. Obviously the Middle Ground is to just remove the Welfare Ranchers now, and ask them to go away quietly....

Actually, I think there are "Middle of the Road" groups, but they are called the Optimists, the Rotary Club, the Elks Club, etc.. etc... They just do good things for the sake of doing good things, but do not take on projects that would raise anybody's hackle.

 

[whitedeer]

Hey Gunner.....I resemble that remark! I don't dip, nor do I drink Hamm's beer.....and my '75 International is a 3/4 ton crew cab......So apologize, or else I'll, I'll, I'll, yeah that's it.....I'll give Ithaca your cell phone number!

 

[dgibson]

The problem is that middle-of-the-roading isn't sexy. Extreme views make the news because they're good for ratings. You don't get middle ground because it isn't exciting and inflammatory.

Furthermore, society in general has a habit of (need to?) pigeonhole people that they don't really know into groups. You're either a hugger or a hunter, and nothing in between. You're either a vegan or you're not. Most people don't want to take the time to get to know a person, issue, or whatever to the point that they understand the subtle nuances of their positions. They just want to know if "you're fur 'em or agin 'em." Thus the penchant for straight-ticket voters.

This, too, is perpetuated by the "quick fix" news phenomenon...where you think you can get a handle on an issue by watching a 30-minute documentary on Animal Planet.

As Twain once said, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

 

[Ten Bears]

GRINNER, we have salmon in our rivers, and I have salmon and steelhead cards. I have fish in my freezer as we speak. I also have peaceful sleep knowing that the local nuclear plant, Hanford, (we were downwind from) is being disassembled (can you say cleanup?).

Middle of the road would be the construction of better fish ladders and passage ways through or around the dams. Out migration could be sped up by increasing the efficiency of smolt collection nets, and more efficient passages.

GRINNER, you are anything but a moderate. You impart the ideals that your way is the only way. Definitly not middle of the road.

1-P, you are very middle of the road on most issues (even if we don't agree on them). It's the glue sniffing and latte swilling that are correct aint it?

 

[1_pointer]

Yep, TB you got me! That and the Copenhagen! However, I am revolted that someone would accuse me of drinking Hamm's...it's Schlitz damnit!

 

[Ten Bears]

You drink animal beer?! YUCK!!!

 

[1_pointer]

I used to drink just about anything if the price was right.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Ten,

Do you just make things up? Or do you have little voices in your head telling you these things???

You said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I also have peaceful sleep knowing that the local nuclear plant, Hanford, (we were downwind from) is being disassembled (can you say cleanup?). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That reactor owned by Energy Northwest (Used to be WPPSS-2) is now called the Columbia Generating Station and is licensed until the year 2023. At that point, they will re-apply for a license for another 20 years.

Sure, I can say cleanup, but it will be in the year 2043 that it begins, so I doubt I will be too actively involved in the project. Maybe I'll drive my Motor Home, pulling a boat, past the clean up, at 10mph under the speed limit, like the rest of the Grey Haired, Winnebego driving, sensible shoe wearing, Geritol downing, Prune Juice drinking, retirees.

I don't know where you get the idea that the plant is shut down and being dismantled. You really might want to see if you can learn to do reserach....

If your knowledge on Hydro power matches your knowledge of Nuclear power, then this might be a topic you would be better served reading more, and writing less....

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, Thanks for finally seeing the light and agreeing with us!

You said, "Middle of the road would be the construction of better fish ladders and passage ways through or around the dams." Passage ways around the dams! That's exactly what we've been tryin' to get thru your thick skull!

What the hell do you think breaching is anyway?

It's how we can provide passage ways around the dams!!

Now, after thousands of posts on the issue, you think the solution is to provide passage ways around the dams!!

Congratulations on coming up with that brilliant idea!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 09-08-2003 21:23: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>