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No Second Amendment in the UK

There is no way that a law requiring firearms to be locked away will be enforced proactively here in the U.S. on a nationwide scale, at least not in any of our lifetimes. Best case scenario is it would be enforced after an incident occurs, which has zero effect on the outcome.

The authorities are not going to be allowed to just randomly show up at people's homes and say " Do you have firearms in your home? You do? We need to check and make sure they are locked away."

In order for it to be policed effectively that would require firearm registration. It would also require all sorts of dancing around the 4th Amendment. It would require States to comply, which moves into 10th Amendment issues.

Right now some States and City's have stricter gun regulations than others. I assume that is because of the 10th Amendment. Are we going to just throw all of that out the window and have a standardized set of gun regulations across the country?

I am not saying that things cannot be done. I am not saying that something should not be done. I just think that what is proposed should actually have a chance of being implemented and also once implemented actually address the problems they are meant to address.

Also, something that I was pondering as I got ready for work this morning and not just pertaining to 2nd Amendment issues but as a broader question : At what point in the process of having limitations placed on it does a right cease to be a right and become a privilege?

The 10th amendment is only the thinnest of protections from Fed - incredibly few laws have been found to violate in the last 75 years - it is nearly non-existent legally. But does still have some political/social sway/persuasive value and the feds do at times leave decisions to the states - but not out of fear of the 10thA.

As for the constitution as a whole, it is only a barrier to restrictions on speech, firearms, and anything else if the majority of the public agrees with the point. If 70% of society wants personal firearms gone, SCOTUS will not stop that outcome over time. Hell, SCOTUS let us own other humans as personal property when it was popular to do so. All you have to do is say the 2A is for the national guard only or that even if private the 2A is governed by the "rational basis" test which means any but the most arbitrary gun law would be "constitutional" - the opinions have already been written by 4 of the 9 justices.

From my perspective, the biggest problem is that to go much beyond our current state (where rural states are lax and urban states are working towards European style regulation and the SCOTUS split 4-4-1) will require a political/social/cultural upheaval on the order of Prohibition, the "War on Drugs" and its tag-along "incarceration state". And those did not go well. They solved nothing but did manage to turn law-abiding citizens into criminals while emboldening hardened criminals and gangs. I will say it again, we need to get off the Bloomberg rhetorical wagon and start putting our passions, energy, and dollars into the much bigger problems ahead - medical care, immigration, gang violence (the real causes), mental health system, education reform, federal budget deficits, the graying of our nation, etc. But those are complicated, lack the immediate 24-hour news cycle fodder, and seem to be too distant to rally suburban soccer moms. So gun control is the highlight - metaphorically Nero's fiddle.
 
I think something like what I outlined in #51 is probably the only realistic option. For all the reasons you just highlighted.

I just read what you posted in #51 and I think it is reasonable for the most part. I'm not sure that I would volunteer for the program because of the licensing ad registration part but I am sure that there are plenty who would.
 
I just read what you posted in #51 and I think it is reasonable for the most part. I'm not sure that I would volunteer for the program because of the licensing ad registration part but I am sure that there are plenty who would.

Yeah the licensing and registration will definitely be a tough pill to swallow, but I think you could give folks in the rural west the ability to opt out.

The other component of these conversations that is a head scratcher is the rural urban divide in types of gun ownership.

Most western owners/rural owners have a number of long guns and then a couple if any handguns for personal protection. I bet the average gun owner in rural Minnesota/Montana owns long guns to hand guns at a 5 to 1 ratio, and the state wide ratio is probably 10 to 1.

In urban america it's almost exclusively handguns. I bet where I live it's 90 to 1 hand guns to long guns among those who own guns.

I had to take a Mass gun safety course to apply for my LTC. It was exclusively about handgun and handgun safety. We didn't discuss rifles or shot guns at all. The Mass "approved" firearm list is only handguns, I believe you can buy whatever rifle or shotgun you want. I could go on with examples but you get the point.

All of this is totally different than the UK because there, correct me if I'm wrong, @devon deer , you can't own a hand gun.
 
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@wllm1313 correct, handguns are banned in the UK, as a deer stalker I could apply for a 2 shot revolver but its not worth the hassle.
The only people in the UK that have access to hand guns are the military and the police, oh and the criminals!
Cheers
Richard
So Richard, I am curious if you think the NRA here in the USA is doing the best thing to prevent our nation from moving towards the level of gun control you experience or polarizing the pro-gun and anti gun groups?

I'm also curious if you have met a number of US gun owners outside of us "Hunt Talk Elite" and what was your impression of them?
 
Far too many anti 2A folk forget their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents who fought not more than 75 years ago against a mad man who ruled a country bent on genocide.

75 years ago...

The same anti 2A people in America wept at such a shocking loss 2016. Outrage and direct ridiculous / outlandish remarks by the <HT censored political party> leaders and followers related to the alleged extremes of our current POTUS...

Yet only 75 years ago...

But hey, who cares, right?

Without the 2nd there would be no 1st. Without the first there would be no freedom.
 
Far too many anti 2A folk forget their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents who fought not more than 75 years ago against a mad man who ruled a country bent on genocide.
75 years ago...
The same anti 2A people in America wept at such a shocking loss 2016. Outrage and direct ridiculous / outlandish remarks by the <HT censored political party> leaders and followers related to the alleged extremes of our current POTUS...
Yet only 75 years ago...
But hey, who cares, right?
Without the 2nd there would be no 1st. Without the first there would be no freedom.

 
Far too many anti 2A folk forget their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents who fought not more than 75 years ago against a mad man who ruled a country bent on genocide.

75 years ago...

The same anti 2A people in America wept at such a shocking loss 2016. Outrage and direct ridiculous / outlandish remarks by the <HT censored political party> leaders and followers related to the alleged extremes of our current POTUS...

Yet only 75 years ago...

But hey, who cares, right?

Without the 2nd there would be no 1st. Without the first there would be no freedom.
Fist of all our grandparents didn't bring their hunting rifles and bedside revolvers to WW2 - they were provided arms by the military. Second, there is no evidence that there was any meaningful number of Germans who wanted to take up personal arms against Hitler in the early years when such popular insurrection was a theoretical option. As such, this does not need to be "forgotten" to be in favor of gun control now. (which if you have been reading the whole thread you know I have very skeptical of)

I have no idea what the 2016 dismay with Trump election has to do at all with this thread so hopefully, we all let it pass and not veer off.

Finally, many countries that have just as much day to day freedom as we do have neither a 1A nor a 2A. I love the Bill of Rights and prefer to give strong deference to both 1A, 2A and 4A, but hundreds of millions of humans successfully live lives not that different from ours without these 71 words on a piece of paper.
 
Far too many anti 2A folk forget their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents who fought not more than 75 years ago against a mad man who ruled a country bent on genocide.

75 years ago...

The same anti 2A people in America wept at such a shocking loss 2016. Outrage and direct ridiculous / outlandish remarks by the <HT censored political party> leaders and followers related to the alleged extremes of our current POTUS...

Yet only 75 years ago...

But hey, who cares, right?

Without the 2nd there would be no 1st. Without the first there would be no freedom.

For more than a little of the madman's rule,, he was wildly popular with a significant portion of his public. It's unlikely a version of the second amendment anywhere would have changed world history.

Also it is a stretch to say that without the 2nd amendment there would be no freedom. There are many countries whose citizens have personal freedom, while owning firearms is considered a privilege not a right.

I have no idea of when but there will be a day when the NRA dam holding back gun regulations will break. Outside of gun owners,,, the NRA does not enjoy a good reputation.
 
Far too many anti 2A folk forget their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents who fought not more than 75 years ago against a mad man who ruled a country bent on genocide.

75 years ago...

The same anti 2A people in America wept at such a shocking loss 2016. Outrage and direct ridiculous / outlandish remarks by the <HT censored political party> leaders and followers related to the alleged extremes of our current POTUS...

Yet only 75 years ago...

But hey, who cares, right?

Without the 2nd there would be no 1st. Without the first there would be no freedom.

Approximately 75 years ago a 14-15 year old black kid was taken from his home, in broad notice of others in the house who felt powerless to stop it, beaten, murdered, and dumped in a river for "hitting on" a white woman. The murderers (appropriate title since they later fully admitted to the crime knowing they couldn't get prosecuted) were found innocent despite plenty of evidence and testimony to the contrary. It took the mother making the murder a national news headline to even the murder investigated in any significant way. People involved in the case were still alive in the early parts of the 2000's, less than 20 years ago.

And yet racial inequality was so long ago that it has no impact on black american's my age, born in the 80's-90's.

If 75 years ago wasn't that long for 2A talk, it isn't that long for racial inequality talk either.

I know that you didn't say anything about race. But, hey, might as well bring two equally contentious subjects to the same thread on HT.
 
Fist of all our grandparents didn't bring their hunting rifles and bedside revolvers to WW2 - they were provided arms by the military. Second, there is no evidence that there was any meaningful number of Germans who wanted to take up personal arms against Hitler in the early years when such popular insurrection was a theoretical option. As such, this does not need to be "forgotten" to be in favor of gun control now. (which if you have been reading the whole thread you know I have very skeptical of)

I have no idea what the 2016 dismay with Trump election has to do at all with this thread so hopefully, we all let it pass and not veer off.

Finally, many countries that have just as much day to day freedom as we do have neither a 1A nor a 2A. I love the Bill of Rights and prefer to give strong deference to both 1A, 2A and 4A, but hundreds of millions of humans successfully live lives not that different from ours without these 71 words on a piece of paper.
Their day to day freedoms can be taken away much easier without having the 2A.
 
Amazing...

The vocal few anti 2A ht members remind me... time to support 2A organizations.

Best to ya.
 
Far too many anti 2A folk forget their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents who fought not more than 75 years ago against a mad man who ruled a country bent on genocide.

75 years ago...

The same anti 2A people in America wept at such a shocking loss 2016. Outrage and direct ridiculous / outlandish remarks by the <HT censored political party> leaders and followers related to the alleged extremes of our current POTUS...

Yet only 75 years ago...

But hey, who cares, right?

Without the 2nd there would be no 1st. Without the first there would be no freedom.
Let us know how your AR 15 does when the military knocks on your door.... These arguments are no longer valid in the world we live in of mini guns, tanks, f-22, etc. To think the 2nd A really protects you from fascism is a pipe dream....

Different story when every one was rocking smoke pipes
 
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