Mule deer rut hunt

[jeremys4]

So I have a question why aren't there more mule deer rut tags? Nevada has a couple of rut hunts but I think that every unit should have at least a few tags in November. Just wondering if anyone has insite on this topic.

 

[ida homer]

It's not the greatest thing for deer to be pressured and chased around in late fall when they need to be conserving energy and putting on weight for winter, IMO.

This is a mistake that I think Montana is making and why people seem to be so unhappy with the deer herds in that state right now. As a general consensus, the states around Montana seem to be shooting more and better bucks. Although I'm sure there are exceptions.

If I could hunt the rut OTC in Idaho with a rifle, I could shoot two 170" bucks every season without fail, not a doubt in my mind.

 

[belly-deep]

It's not the greatest thing for deer to be pressured and chased around in late fall when they need to be conserving energy and putting on weight for winter, IMO.

This is a mistake that I think Montana is making and why people seem to be so unhappy with the deer herds in that state right now. As a general consensus, the states around Montana seem to be shooting more and better bucks. Although I'm sure there are exceptions.

If I could hunt the rut OTC in Idaho with a rifle, I could shoot two 170" bucks every season without fail, not a doubt in my mind.

Those 170 bucks would go nocturnal. Mature bucks don't lose their brains during the rut contrary to popular belief.

And who says people are unhappy with the seasons? FWP has offered to change them several times and it is overwhelmingly rejected by hunters.

A few bitch here and there. But mostly it is those who dont understand the real issues at play.

 

[Stubaby]

Here are the reasons it works I Montana(sort of)

1. It's a large state that is for the most part very unpopulated. Less road kill than other states like Colorado and Utah and waay more winter range.

2. Vast tracks of large private ranches that allow limited or no hunting. These areas act as a refuge.

3. Relatively mild winters where the deer winter. Montana has the cold, but compared to the winters around Afton, Kemmerer in Wyoming and areas in Western Colorado, the vast majority of deer in Montana don't have to deal with 5 ft of snow all the time on top of the cold. When they do like up on the highline a few years back we see the toll it can take.

If the mature bucks don't get stupid during the rut then why are there only a fraction of 4th season Colorado tags as compared to 2nd season? Can you imagine how fast the hunting would decline in other states if the entire month of November was OTC tags good for almost the whole state???

Can you imagine if elk hunting in sept was done with rifles? Judas!!!!

People don't come to this state by the thousands to hunt mainly November 10-25 because the bucks are nocturnal and harder to kill. I would be in favor of archery only areas and/ or the rifle hunt to end about nov 5th and switch over to Archery/muzzleloader for the remainder.

Heaven forbid ending the extremely difficult task of driving dirt roads in eastern Montana and whacking a buck from the truck at 150 yards with a rifle while he stands there looking at you with those glazed over eyes and swollen neck over the thanksgiving holiday. I know I'm in the minority but I think killing a deer should be harder to do. As the population increases and the mule deer population continues to decline, things will have to change. Deleting doe tags was a start. I hope we start to see more numbers as a result.

It would be sweet to see the mule deer population at carrying capacity in Montana. There is so much land between Alzada and Libby that should hold deer and it does not. There are still deer to be found but there are also tons of places that should have deer and there is nothing.

 

[Redwood]

Lose their minds, perhaps not. Certainly seem to throw caution to the wind. I also believe that a lot of people are unhappy with a number of mt's management strategies. However, a great deal of those same people don't fight to make their voices heard for various reasons; therefore accepting what the few actively fight for.

 

[gwhunter]

I know this is perhaps an apples to oranges comparison, but to further comment on the "deer go nocturnal" idea I will say the following. In the midwest (MI and IN to be specific) we are going to start our first and only rifle season in 8 days. Which means we will be hunting the back--end of the rut. From my experiences the bucks do tend to start to go nocturnal as hunting pressure increases. What was once fields full of bucks at 4:00 in the afternoon now will only hold does or small fork-horned bucks. That's not to say a rut crazed buck won't be chasing every doe in the area during the day as well. Just that only typically happens when your buck/doe ratio is a little more in check. From most of the areas i've hunted, both public and private, if the big boys know you are there and there are plenty of girls around they will wait until the safety of darkness to do their thing.

 

[ida homer]

In a couple of our mid to low country units where the deer congregate and winter we have an OTC rut archery hunt. There is no quota for the amount of tags in these units either, unlimited go to wal mart buy your tags, grab your bow and go hunt type of deal.

Obviously seeing them and killing them with a bow S&S is a different story but our bucks don't seem to go nocturnal hardly at all. I'll see 20 bucks a day, 7-10 will be 4 points and one or two will be really nice bucks. Just my experience in my neck of the woods.

 

[belly-deep]

Here are the reasons it works I Montana(sort of)

1. It's a large state that is for the most part very unpopulated. Less road kill than other states like Colorado and Utah and waay more winter range.

2. Vast tracks of large private ranches that allow limited or no hunting. These areas act as a refuge.

3. Relatively mild winters where the deer winter. Montana has the cold, but compared to the winters around Afton, Kemmerer in Wyoming and areas in Western Colorado, the vast majority of deer in Montana don't have to deal with 5 ft of snow all the time on top of the cold. When they do like up on the highline a few years back we see the toll it can take.

If the mature bucks don't get stupid during the rut then why are there only a fraction of 4th season Colorado tags as compared to 2nd season? Can you imagine how fast the hunting would decline in other states if the entire month of November was OTC tags good for almost the whole state???

Can you imagine if elk hunting in sept was done with rifles? Judas!!!!

People don't come to this state by the thousands to hunt mainly November 10-25 because the bucks are nocturnal and harder to kill. I would be in favor of archery only areas and/ or the rifle hunt to end about nov 5th and switch over to Archery/muzzleloader for the remainder.

Heaven forbid ending the extremely difficult task of driving dirt roads in eastern Montana and whacking a buck from the truck at 150 yards with a rifle while he stands there looking at you with those glazed over eyes and swollen neck over the thanksgiving holiday. I know I'm in the minority but I think killing a deer should be harder to do. As the population increases and the mule deer population continues to decline, things will have to change. Deleting doe tags was a start. I hope we start to see more numbers as a result.

It would be sweet to see the mule deer population at carrying capacity in Montana. There is so much land between Alzada and Libby that should hold deer and it does not. There are still deer to be found but there are also tons of places that should have deer and there is nothing.

Historically, Montana has never been a state that grows a lot of big deer. People assume that because we have a general season rut hunt, that our bucks aren't reaching their potential. A look back at the record books shows that back in the '50's and '60's when Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, and Colorado were kicking out monster deer every year, Montana was far, far behind. Sure, there were a few, but even back when everything was pretty even (rut seasons and no draw units across the West), Montana could not run with the big boys, for whatever reason.

Its true, the rut does attract a lot of attention in the state. But I don't think it increases the mortality as much as people think. The "glazed over" bucks you speak of are mostly 1.5-3.5 year old bucks, which makes of the bulk of the harvest in any state, irrespective of season.

That is why clamping things down won't do any good. For one, we don't have the production capability. You can see this going on in Region 2 right now. A good portion of Region 2 is now on a draw of some sort for mule deer. But, the result is NOT a dozen + carbon copies of 270 and 261. They remain the premier units in Region 2. In the rest of them, you can probably find deer a little above average if you draw the tag, but the cost is basically no hunter opportunity.

Second, trying to make a resource more scarce only makes hunters more greedy. Utah is a perfect example of this, and yet all of the chopping they have done on the general tags has not dramatically improved the situation. Its now just an ATV race to the first forkhorn you can find in a week long hunt. Nevada's model is better for growing big deer, but hunter opportunity is the cost.

Everyone wants to chop seasons, but herd management is so simple.

 

[belly-deep]

In a couple of our mid to low country units where the deer congregate and winter we have an OTC rut archery hunt. There is no quota for the amount of tags in these units either, unlimited go to wal mart buy your tags, grab your bow and go hunt type of deal.

Obviously seeing them and killing them with a bow S&S is a different story but our bucks don't seem to go nocturnal hardly at all. I'll see 20 bucks a day, 7-10 will be 4 points and one or two will be really nice bucks. Just my experience in my neck of the woods.

They only go nocturnal if threatened. Bow hunters apparently don't scare them much. Start shooting at them with guns and they'll hide, I promise. At least, the big ones will. The small ones will be shot no matter what the season.

 

[Stubaby]

No doubt Montana can't put deer in the books like other western states. I'm just talking about the overall lack of mature deer......and the overall lack of deer, period.

Limiting access, tag numbers, and weapons restrictions all have an effect on deer harvest. Take the Wasatch front archery only area: probably the worst winter range and the highest auto fatality rate of anywhere.

Yet, there are deer. Lots of them. Why? Because they are a biz natch to get to and when you do you still have to get within bow range.

You can chase them from aug 17th to dec 1.

So what if you can't blast them from 400 yards away from the ford truck?

I'm not saying to make major changes. I'm just that doing things the way they have always been done isn't increasing deer numbers.

Montana is an "opportunity state". Define opportunity. For some, having the opportunity to look over a good amount of mature deer and stalk them with a more primitive weapon than a 300rum over and over gives one lots of opportunity. It's even better for the herds if the vast majority of people who hunt this way are uncucsessful.

But if more "opportunity" is described as going out on the powder river area and driving the dirt roads with your buds and having the opportunity of whacking a deer that won't run away from the vehicle because it wants to breed worse than run away then I guess I'll take the former.


Hunting is great and Montana offers some of the best on the world. I for one would be willing to give up a little bit of "opportunity" in order to see more overall deer numbers out in the field.

 

[mdunc8]

I for one would be willing to give up a little bit of "opportunity" in order to see more overall deer numbers out in the field.

If you're concerned about mule deer abundances in Montana, changing how and when bucks are harvested will not solve the problem.

 

[ida homer]

If you're concerned about mule deer abundances in Montana, changing how and when bucks are harvested will not solve the problem.

Expand.

 

[mdunc8]

If you want to increase the number of mule deer in Montana, limiting the harvest of bucks isn't going to help. Last time I checked, bucks couldn't squirt fawns out of the rear. That's what does are for and there's plenty of dinky bucks running around that are more than capable of impregnating every last doe in Montana.

 

[jeremys4]

Nevada does put out some good bucks but in recent years they have given out to many tags. They fired the commissioner in 2013 for giving out to many mule deer tags but didn't change the quota. He was just a fall boy. Now they have paired bull elk and cow elk tags, and buck with cow seeming that it would limit hunters in a unit. First hand I have noticed that is not the case and everyone I talk to says the same thing.

 

[antlerradar]

One of the best bucks I have ever taken was standing in the middle of a hay field out of his mind at nine in the morning the Friday before Thanksgiving. I only saw this buck one time before that day even tough he lived only a few miles from my home. I spotted him in early Oct. just before dark as he left very rugged BLM sec. It was too dark to tell much about his antlers other than he was very tall. I tried to find him several times but failed. Every year I see several good bucks that just show up in the hay fields during the rut. One just showed up yesterday. A 25-27 inch heavy antlered 3 by 4. I look in that field at least 3 times a week all fall and yesterday is the first day I have seen him this year.
I understand that hunters are unwilling to trade opportunity for quality. To a Landowner opportunity = money. The more opportunity the more money I can make from hunting. The more opportunity a state grants the more commercialized the state will become. Texas has lots of opportunity, If you are willing to pay.

Antlerradar

 

[belly-deep]

No doubt Montana can't put deer in the books like other western states. I'm just talking about the overall lack of mature deer......and the overall lack of deer, period.

Limiting access, tag numbers, and weapons restrictions all have an effect on deer harvest. Take the Wasatch front archery only area: probably the worst winter range and the highest auto fatality rate of anywhere.

Yet, there are deer. Lots of them. Why? Because they are a biz natch to get to and when you do you still have to get within bow range.

You can chase them from aug 17th to dec 1.

So what if you can't blast them from 400 yards away from the ford truck?

I'm not saying to make major changes. I'm just that doing things the way they have always been done isn't increasing deer numbers.

Montana is an "opportunity state". Define opportunity. For some, having the opportunity to look over a good amount of mature deer and stalk them with a more primitive weapon than a 300rum over and over gives one lots of opportunity. It's even better for the herds if the vast majority of people who hunt this way are uncucsessful.

But if more "opportunity" is described as going out on the powder river area and driving the dirt roads with your buds and having the opportunity of whacking a deer that won't run away from the vehicle because it wants to breed worse than run away then I guess I'll take the former.


Hunting is great and Montana offers some of the best on the world. I for one would be willing to give up a little bit of "opportunity" in order to see more overall deer numbers out in the field.

So what is wrong with a little variety? There's plenty of "opportunity" for you to hunt with primitive weapons for mature critters across the west. Why do ALL of the western states have to subscribe to the same management model?

 

[Stubaby]

They don't belly deep.

But answer these 3 questions:

Why did mtfwp eliminate all mule deer doe tags statewide this yr?

When was the last time anybody posted anything remotely close to "went out hunting in Montana this year.....actually saw more deer than last time I was out.......hunted hard and found plenty of deer to look over", ect?

Why are there still tags available to buy after all the hunts are done being applied for if the hunting in Montana is so awesome and the whole world knows it ?

I cover this entire state for work. The vast majority of my customers hunt. Not one of them ever tells me that the deer hunting is even remotely close to being adequate based on:
How the hunting used to be.
How it was just a few years ago.
How they wish it could be.

I'm not looking for an argument. Plus, if things stay the same or get worse ill still be able to "get mine". I just don't get with so much open land why there can't be a healthier deer herd. More overal numbers, and more mature bucks, regardless of score.

 

[belly-deep]

They don't belly deep.

But answer these 3 questions:

Why did mtfwp eliminate all mule deer doe tags statewide this yr?

When was the last time anybody posted anything remotely close to "went out hunting in Montana this year.....actually saw more deer than last time I was out.......hunted hard and found plenty of deer to look over", ect?

Why are there still tags available to buy after all the hunts are done being applied for if the hunting in Montana is so awesome and the whole world knows it ?

I cover this entire state for work. The vast majority of my customers hunt. Not one of them ever tells me that the deer hunting is even remotely close to being adequate based on:
How the hunting used to be.
How it was just a few years ago.
How they wish it could be.

I'm not looking for an argument. Plus, if things stay the same or get worse ill still be able to "get mine". I just don't get with so much open land why there can't be a healthier deer herd. More overal numbers, and more mature bucks, regardless of score.

1) Presumably FWP eliminated doe tags to boost deer numbers, and I am glad they did that.

2) I don't know because I don't read every post. My guess is that there will never be as many deer as people would like. I can say that in my areas, this is the first year since the winter of 2010/2011 that numbers look they are getting back to what they were before that.

3) There are leftover tags because of I-161.


Now that I've answered your questions, please answer this: how would a primitive weapons rut hunt help #1-3?

An older age class of bucks does not necessarily equate to more deer.


And if you really want to hear your customers bitch, move their rifle season back a month

 

[belly-deep]

Expand.

twsnow18,

I'm curious as to whether you were around to hunt Idaho seasons before they changed? Ryan Hatfield's book does a good job of outlining the changes Idaho made back in the 90's (?).

I know a very good mule deer hunter from Idaho that has studied the effects pretty closely. I won't name him here, but lets just say he moderates a different hunting forum, has hunted all over the West, and has killed several 190"+ bucks.

His take on things is that Idaho hunters don't kill any more big bucks now than they did before the season switch.

 

[----]

Stubaby- You've never heard anyone say they're happy with the deer hunting in the state? Really? My office is full of guys that are pouring over maps right now, and I know some mature buck pictures will be passed around on Monday.

I've only been out hunting three days this rifle season, and I watched a giant mature buck hit the ground and jumped another awesome non-typical on the complete other side of the state. Both of these were pre-rut.

I'm headed out in a couple hours for three days of elk hunting, and I can guarantee you I'll cross paths with at least one mature buck in that time period.

No, there aren't giant deer everywhere, but as long as there's giant pieces of roadless areas across the state, there will be mature bucks to be had for those willing to work. It's not hard at all to be a happy deer hunter in this state.

Cutting doe tags is what leads to better deer numbers, and I'm glad that's the direction FWP is headed. Mature breaks are going to be taken out of the herd by selective hunters regardless of when the season is.