MT Wolf Population

[tjones]

For the first time in 40 years of hunting the Root I had to apply for a permit to hunt bull elk in my hunting district. This is due to low bull/cow numbers. That hurt but I fought for the restriction to try and recover those numbers.. Yes, I could, and proably should go hunt some where else, but I don't want to. Every elk I have shot has been in this HD except for 2. Selfish, maybe. This is where I hunt.


Past liberal season, lose of winter range, poor range conditions, knap weed all figure in. All things we are working on or changed.

Predators figure in also and they don't eat salads.

 

[Ben Lamb]

That's fine. Let's get more wolves harvested, but let's do it in a way that's not going to piss off the 70% we need to keep on our side.

Remember, we're going to be facing anti-trapping initiatives, the CA director of F&G is under fire for a legally killed lion, and the antis continue to gain traction. Especially when it comes to hunting large carnivores.


http://www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/NAMWC_Public_Opinion_Hunting.pdf

 

[Ben Lamb]

For the first time in 40 years of hunting the Root I had to apply for a permit to hunt bull elk in my hunting district. This is due to low bull/cow numbers. That hurt but I fought for the restriction to try and recover those numbers.. Yes, I could, and proably should go hunt some where else, but I don't want to. Every elk I have shot has been in this HD except for 2. Selfish, maybe. This is where I hunt.
.

And I'm with you in getting those numbers back up and getting back the opportunity you've lost

But this is also much larger than the Root.

 

[shortside]

Great thoughts BigFin. Having Trapper Ed is fine with me. Multiple tags and baiting should both be on the table.

These pop numbers are so low as to a bit comical. FWP denied the wolves howling in my backyard for years until they saw them for a count.

 

[tjones]

But this is also much larger than the Root.

I realize that. I don't want the rest of Montana to go the way of the Root.

 

[JMG]

Any article that quotes or relies on Toby Bridges leaves me shaking my head. The guy's opinions are way, way, way out on the fringe.

There is a reason they picked Toby to be the founder of MT SFW. Just like "peays and carrots."

Big Fin, you are exactly right ... regarding Mr. Toby Bridges. He is a loose cannon. I am sure his whole intent is to get Muzzleloading it's own separtate season. He hates FWP, because they rejected his attempt to get a muzzleloader season during the Elk rut. FWP basically told him, "No, and you can use your muzzleloader during the General Rifle Season." He is still upset.

He is still trying to get some attention.

 

[shoots-straight]

That's fine. Let's get more wolves harvested, but let's do it in a way that's not going to piss off the 70% we need to keep on our side.

We don't need all 70% We could live with half that. There's no rational explanation for what's going on in California. Maybe it's because people weren't willing to rock the boat and fight for what was right. If you try to appease those people and keep your activities under the radar, it will catch up too you. Your not doing anyone any favors trying to play nice. That's a fact.

 

[Ben Lamb]

We don't need all 70% We could live with half that. There's no rational explanation for what's going on in California. Maybe it's because people weren't willing to rock the boat and fight for what was right. If you try to appease those people and keep your activities under the radar, it will catch up too you. Your not doing anyone any favors trying to play nice. That's a fact.

I'm not talking about being under the radar, I'm talking about ensuring the future of hunting, fishing and trapping. In order to keep what we enjoy in the form we currently have, we have to have public perception on our side, or we lose it, like they did in CA, New Jersey (bears) and elsewhere.

We are 5% of the overall population. Hunting enjoys a 75% approval rating, hunters not so much. Predator hunters do not have a majority support. That's troublesome.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I realize that. I don't want the rest of Montana to go the way of the Root.

Well then, don't let anyone leave.

 

[shoots-straight]

Predator hunters do not have a majority support.

and that's just the make up of our f & g commission.

 

[Ben Lamb]

quit letting Toby define you then.

 

[drahthaar]

How much winter range has BC lost due to an population increase? Noxious weeds ,etc? You have to look at the whole picture, not just focus on one solution. I'm all for killing wolves, but I'd rather have a good understanding of what's really going on before applying any one method.

They have had drastic losses of winter range due to human growth and forest growth due to fire suppression. There are studies on it. It is well documented. But I am not just talking about killing wolves. Ecologically there is very little difference between BC R4 and our R1. The large expanses of winter range dont exist as it does south of here. Yet they seem to grow their herds. In the Kootenays, they grew their elk herd from 15000 to near 30,000. Those numbers are so far beyond knapweed and subdivisions compared to what we have, it is not an issue. What's going on is this, here is the big picture. They stopped shooting cows in 97 and went to a six point bull reg. And all along they are hunting wolves. In several units in region 4 there is no wolf quota, open season year round below 3000 ft elevation. They keep wolves and bears off of winter range, and chase bears during calving/fawning season. They allow baiting, trapping, e calls. They keep wolves in the mountains where they belong. A bio up there, told me they also got lucky with weather for some years in there as well.

What do we do? We start a friggin "youth" hunt(Am I the only one that thinks this was dreamt up by Debbie Barrett and that elk hating crowd?), we let every kid 12-15 y.o.(or their dad) blow down a cow anywhere all season. 4000 kids in the flathead have taken hunter's safety over the past 4 years. That doesn't include the Eureka, Libby, T-falls, Plains, Ronan, Polson kids. It was quietly stated at the public comment meeting by one of the FWP folks that 450 cows were killed in R1 last season(I am trying to confirm that, it better not be true, sounds way high). WTF!!! Who can support this? What hunter or conservation group with a shred of common sense can support this? God only knows how many does were smacked. We don't have game numbers in R1 to allow does and cows to get shot like this.

We finally get a wolf hunt, great! We should be hunting them through March for sure. We finally got winter, now they are pounding our yarded up game. Trapping, will come around. Get rid of the quota too. And our bears, they finally moved the date to May 15th west of 93. But didn't move it to June 15 in 103 106 and 107. We will get about 2 good weeks of hunting bears again over here. And they are still making people take that worm-ridden junk meat out of the woods. We should abandon that too. More guys would shoot bears. I think its the biggest reason many won't shoot bears.

The bottom line is this, they drastically increased their herds in the face of the same predators as we have, and in the face of the same land issues we have. You go into any conversation about hunting, what is the first thing that comes up--wolves. I am saying, look who is dealing with the problem effectively, see what they are doing and emulate it, it isn't some big secret, or some experiment, it has worked! Frankly, I don't want to hear excuses for why we can't do it as well. Keep killing cows on this youth hunt here in R1, and we will be the same as the Root, wolf or no wolf.

Sorry to get so off topic, but I think it's all relevant, its part of the big picture.

 

[cowboy]

What would it take to make a wolf license part of our sportsman's license? We definetly need more ground troups out there this coming year that are packing wolf licenses.

 

[Ben Lamb]

They have had drastic losses of winter range due to human growth and forest growth due to fire suppression. There are studies on it. It is well documented. But I am not just talking about killing wolves. Ecologically there is very little difference between BC R4 and our R1. The large expanses of winter range dont exist as it does south of here. Yet they seem to grow their herds. In the Kootenays, they grew their elk herd from 15000 to near 30,000. Those numbers are so far beyond knapweed and subdivisions compared to what we have, it is not an issue. What's going on is this, here is the big picture. They stopped shooting cows in 97 and went to a six point bull reg. And all along they are hunting wolves. In several units in region 4 there is no wolf quota, open season year round below 3000 ft elevation. They keep wolves and bears off of winter range, and chase bears during calving/fawning season. They allow baiting, trapping, e calls. They keep wolves in the mountains where they belong. A bio up there, told me they also got lucky with weather for some years in there as well.

What do we do? We start a friggin "youth" hunt(Am I the only one that thinks this was dreamt up by Debbie Barrett and that elk hating crowd?), we let every kid 12-15 y.o.(or their dad) blow down a cow anywhere all season. 4000 kids in the flathead have taken hunter's safety over the past 4 years. That doesn't include the Eureka, Libby, T-falls, Plains, Ronan, Polson kids. It was quietly stated at the public comment meeting by one of the FWP folks that 450 cows were killed in R1 last season(I am trying to confirm that, it better not be true, sounds way high). WTF!!! Who can support this? What hunter or conservation group with a shred of common sense can support this? God only knows how many does were smacked. We don't have game numbers in R1 to allow does and cows to get shot like this.

We finally get a wolf hunt, great! We should be hunting them through March for sure. We finally got winter, now they are pounding our yarded up game. Trapping, will come around. Get rid of the quota too. And our bears, they finally moved the date to May 15th west of 93. But didn't move it to June 15 in 103 106 and 107. We will get about 2 good weeks of hunting bears again over here. And they are still making people take that worm-ridden junk meat out of the woods. We should abandon that too. More guys would shoot bears. I think its the biggest reason many won't shoot bears.

The bottom line is this, they drastically increased their herds in the face of the same predators as we have, and in the face of the same land issues we have. You go into any conversation about hunting, what is the first thing that comes up--wolves. I am saying, look who is dealing with the problem effectively, see what they are doing and emulate it, it isn't some big secret, or some experiment, it has worked! Frankly, I don't want to hear excuses for why we can't do it as well. Keep killing cows on this youth hunt here in R1, and we will be the same as the Root, wolf or no wolf.

Sorry to get so off topic, but I think it's all relevant, its part of the big picture.

Nice! Great job painting a broader picture. So, what's the long term trend and carrying capacity of those regions, and does an elk herd of 30,000 fit in with that long term trend? We've seen places in AK where the habitat was marginal, but due to severe predator control the moose population go out of whack with what the land could carry and unless there's a bunch of guys out there killing 2-3 moose you'll have disease or population die offs.

BTW - the Elk Plan and HB 42 once again should be pointed to as one of the most important influencing factors in elk declines, IMO.

P.S. If you guys would go cut some trees, then you'd have sme good forage for elk too.

 

[shoots-straight]

Just got off the phone with Toby, so I've got some new insight.

This didn't come from him.

Certainly what created the crash of the Root Elk came from the passing of HB 42 in 2003. We (hunters) killed the elk, and were happy to do it. Not much for bitching during that time. The predators won't let us bring those herds back.

Trapping, is going to happen, probably later than sooner, if we are to get our herds back. That's a fact. To think that the Root as well as other areas in the state with simalar land structure and predator make up, will be able to shoot our way out of this, is laughable, and won't happen. Mark Hebblewhite stood right in front of me and told us this. He's the man when it comes to this chit. Being afraid to act, to do what's needs to be done, even if a lot of people aren't going to like it, will take some nuts. Two of our commissioners nuts are too old and shriveled to support trapping. Call it lack of testosterone or what ever. I know that they look down on it.

Some hunters (minority) are more concerned with trapping and baiting than the 70% that aren't involved. I'm OK with taking the moral low ground on this issue right now. Hell if we ever get a bait season, your invited to sit at my bait site. Guarantee you'll change your opinion. If trapping and baiting are morally wrong, (based on hunters feelings) then so be it.

People that don't like a certain methods used for the killing of an animal should try it first before they make up their minds, and you know, they just might like it. I thought bear baiting wasn't ethical either, until I went and did it. The moral minority hunters are a bigger threat to hunting than any bait pile or trap.

 

[drahthaar]

Nice! Great job painting a broader picture. So, what's the long term trend and carrying capacity of those regions, and does an elk herd of 30,000 fit in with that long term trend? We've seen places in AK where the habitat was marginal, but due to severe predator control the moose population go out of whack with what the land could carry and unless there's a bunch of guys out there killing 2-3 moose you'll have disease or population die offs.

BTW - the Elk Plan and HB 42 once again should be pointed to as one of the most important influencing factors in elk declines, IMO.

P.S. If you guys would go cut some trees, then you'd have sme good forage for elk too.

Oh, speaking of. We used to cut timber!! Not anymore. But that was another point the bio up there made to me. They cut timber, and I mean, CUT TIMBER. They create forage for these beasts. They have to. Look at google earth. Start at the Swan Valley, glide north to fernie. See if you see anything resembling a valley, winter range, etc.

It is so frustrating to go back home to Eureka, dead of winter, and see hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of elk standing around in the north valley. All grown in Canada, migrating down to the tobacco valley. They grow em. We kill em. Its just a shame we can't grow an elk herd like that, when the only difference in the "landscape" flora and fauna, is how they are managed.

 

[----]

If these numbers are accurate, that's really bad news.

I agree with the bitterrooters, we need to take advantage of every option we have, asap.

Has Idaho done their counts yet? Their harvests are better, but they have a lot more too.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Just got off the phone with Toby, so I've got some new insight.

This didn't come from him.

Give him the one finger salute from me.

Certainly what created the crash of the Root Elk came from the passing of HB 42 in 2003. We (hunters) killed the elk, and were happy to do it. Not much for bitching during that time. The predators won't let us bring those herds back.

As I said, don't focus just on the predators. What happens if Craig comes back next year after studying forage and says you don't have the groceries? You know this better than most, the predators don't matter as much as the food supply.

Trapping, is going to happen, probably later than sooner, if we are to get our herds back. That's a fact. To think that the Root as well as other areas in the state with simalar land structure and predator make up, will be able to shoot our way out of this, is laughable, and won't happen. Mark Hebblewhite stood right in front of me and told us this. He's the man when it comes to this chit. Being afraid to act, to do what's needs to be done, even if a lot of people aren't going to like it, will take some nuts. Two of our commissioners nuts are too old and shriveled to support trapping. Call it lack of testosterone or what ever. I know that they look down on it.

I've said all along that I'm good with trapping in 2012. It's a modest step to implement another tool in the plan.

Some hunters (minority) are more concerned with trapping and baiting than the 70% that aren't involved. I'm OK with taking the moral low ground on this issue right now. Hell if we ever get a bait season, your invited to sit at my bait site. Guarantee you'll change your opinion. If trapping and baiting are morally wrong, (based on hunters feelings) then so be it.

Never said that trapping was morally wrong. Baiting is a different issue. It's not fair chase, IMO.

The moral minority hunters are a bigger threat to hunting than any bait pile or trap.

I love ya like a brother, but that's BS. When we give up the ethical high ground, we're no better than SFW or Center for Biological Diversity. We're better people than that.

 

[tjones]

As I said, don't focus just on the predators. What happens if Craig comes back next year after studying forage and says you don't have the groceries? You know this better than most, the predators don't matter as much as the food supply.

Not going to happen, the groceries were there in 2005 when there was 1950 elk in HD 250 and 4000 in HD 270, they are there now. Don't be skeert.

 

[bjtc_brian]

Here is one of the biggest reasons we are in this predicament, and won't be able to come out of it without an "open season". This statement tells me the biologists are not using ther noggins, "There were 130 verified packs and 39 breeding pairs counted". What the heck makes a pack of wolves? If there are 130 verified packs, there are at least 130 breeding pairs. If they can't figure out how many breeding pairs there are, they will never be able to predict the future numbers. And if they can't predict th THIS is the reason the 20 wolves have populated exponentialy faster than was predicted.