MT Late Season Bulls?

[Hunt West]

Just continuing their war on elk. If I remember correctly their “new” management plans calls for 92,000 elk in the entire state which is half of what it traditionally has been. Current counts are 140,000 of which 70% reside on private land..... makes perfect sense to keep hammering the elk on public land for 11 weeks plus shoulder seasons. That last sentence was sarcasm in case anyone was wondering.

 

[8andcounting]

Unreal

 

[Gerald Martin]

I am just wondering how a fellow can ensure he gets a call in to shoot nuisance bulls post season in limited entry districts? - asking for a friend.
I heard that an overpopulation of migratory Yellowstone bulls are overgrazing some aspen and willows.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

I am just wondering how a fellow can ensure he gets a call in to shoot nuisance bulls post season in limited entry districts? - asking for a friend.
I heard that an overpopulation of migratory Yellowstone bulls are overgrazing some aspen and willows.

That call was directed to wolves. Problem solved!

Yellowstone Ecosystem Needs Wolves and Willows, Elk and...Beavers?

Find related stories on NSF's Long-Term Research in Environmental Biology Program at this link. Wolves and Yellowstone. In the public mind, and in nature, the…

www.nsf.gov

 

[SAJ-99]

I am just wondering how a fellow can ensure he gets a call in to shoot nuisance bulls post season in limited entry districts? - asking for a friend.

I think they called the hunters who drew LE tags but didn't fill them, unless I misunderstood something

 

[SAJ-99]

As an elk hunter, I would say you can never have too many bulls. However, I don't know if that is true biologically (which is what matters here). So I ask the question generally - can you have too high a bull/cow ratio?

 

[golfer]

As an elk hunter, I would say you can never have too many bulls. However, I don't know if that is true biologically (which is what matters here). So I ask the question generally - can you have too high a bull/cow ratio?

At the public meeting in Lewistown there were a few landowners that actually asked why there were no cows around and that they had too many bulls. Asked that something be done to fix it.

 

[8andcounting]

At the public meeting in Lewistown there were a few landowners that actually asked why there were no cows around and that they had too many bulls. Asked that something be done to fix it.

More bull permits and access . These landowners should allow hunting to bull permit holders then

 

[get-n-birdy]

Public wildlife has been being privatized for years by public land users pushing wildlife off public land. Is that the ranchers fault?

Not for taxes or fees, but there needs to be a better way to fund and manage public land.

Seems like the rancher is being blamed with guilt by association. Get there's a lot of hypocrisy, but no real great solution that doesn't straight up infringe upon a landowners rights. But it's also a sticky wicket if the landowner is benefiting and seemingly wants to double dip. And agree, if you're b!tching, enroll in the bma program. BMA access is the only way that seems to hold water to balance between hunter opportunity and the problems that large herds of elk create for the landowners.

Gotta be some give and take on both sides. With both sides understanding they are quite possible part of the problem.

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

So these bulls migrate to the private land or are found there year around?

 

[Schaaf]

I’m glad to see FWP finally give these ranchers a hand, hopefully they can get transferable landowner tags soon because it doesn’t look like they’re going to make it. Most persecuted subset of the population. Those BLM lands that the elk can’t find any food to eat on are outrageously expensive to graze on. Plus there’s no food for their cattle. Save the cowboy, kill all these vermin elk.

 

[mtmuley]

Most ranchers in question came to Montana with more than ranchers money. Sad, but true I bet. mtmuley

 

[----]

So these bulls migrate to the private land or are found there year around?

For the most part they stay on the private year around. This is lowland desert/grassland country, not much for migrations.

 

[Gerald Martin]

As an elk hunter, I would say you can never have too many bulls. However, I don't know if that is true biologically (which is what matters here). So I ask the question generally - can you have too high a bull/cow ratio?

Yes. In Montana if you get more than 15/100 it’s too many bulls and we have to figure out how to kill them off. It’s the principle, not the biology that matters .

 

[SAJ-99]

Yes. In Montana if you get more than 15/100 it’s too many bulls and we have to figure out how to kill them off. It’s the principle, not the biology that matters .

I am clearly asking the wrong group. I will step to the side and let you continue your complaining.

 

[Irrelevant]

Yes. In Montana if you get more than 15/100 it’s too many bulls and we have to figure out how to kill them off. It’s the principle, not the biology that matters .

15!?! Where did you see numbers that high, I thought they were challenging WA for the lowest possible. We consistently see herds in the 8-6/100 post-season.

 

[Big Fin]

Legit question...I know in the past, the MFWP has somehow authorized season extensions when they felt like not enough elk were killed in the previous 11 weeks. Not sure under what parameters or authority they operate that on. Meaning is it a biologists decision, FWP leadership decision, or does it have to be authorized by the commission?

Not saying this is what they are using as authorization, but it would be an easy way out.

This messed up bill became law - https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2003/billhtml/HB0042.htm

It is now embedded in Montana Code Annotated and can be used as a crutch.

https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0870/chapter_0010/part_0020/section_0010/0870-0010-0020-0010.html with relevant section copied below, thanks to Debbie Barrett and friends, along with an Elk Management Plan that makes it pretty easy to be over objective.

(iii) manage elk, deer, and antelope populations based on habitat estimates determined as provided in 87-1-322 and maintain elk, deer, and antelope population numbers at or below population estimates as provided in 87-1-323. In implementing an elk management plan, the department shall, as necessary to achieve harvest and population objectives, request that land management agencies open public lands and public roads to public access during the big game hunting season.

Another section that was changed.

Montana Code Annotated 2019

TITLE 87. FISH AND WILDLIFE
CHAPTER 1. ORGANIZATION AND OPERATION
Part 3. Fish and Wildlife Commission
Viable Elk, Deer, And Antelope Populations Based On Habitat Acreage -- Reduction Of Populations As Necessary
87-1-323. Viable elk, deer, and antelope populations based on habitat acreage -- reduction of populations as necessary. (1) Based on the habitat acreage that is determined pursuant to 87-1-322, the commission shall determine the appropriate elk, deer, and antelope numbers that can be viably sustained. The department shall consider the specific concerns of private landowners when determining sustainable numbers pursuant to this section.
(2) Once the sustainable population numbers are determined as provided in subsection (1), the department shall implement, through existing wildlife management programs, necessary actions with the objective that the population of elk, deer, and antelope remains at or below the sustainable population. The programs may include but are not limited to:
(a) liberalized harvests;
(b) game damage hunts;
(c) landowner permits; or
(d) animal relocation.
(3) The department shall:
(a) manage with the objective that populations of elk, deer, and antelope are at or below the sustainable population number by January 1, 2009; and
(b) evaluate the elk, deer, and antelope populations on an annual basis and provide that information to the public.

Some will choose the easiest alternative, the path of least resistance, shoot for the lowest common denominator, and fall back to widest margin of interpretation that can be made from existing laws. Combine that with ridiculously low population objectives and maybe one can rationalize shooting bulls on late season population management hunts. I can't rationalize it under any circumstance.

 

[Schaaf]

Thanks, Randy. I’ve been working for two days on finding out how it is legal.

 

[----]

I can't rationalize it under any circumstance.

From what I'm hearing, this isn't a one-off, this is just the one that caught a little bit of publicity.

Public land hunters are screwed in MT. Better save up for a trespass fee if you ever want to have a high quality elk hunt in Montana again.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I am clearly asking the wrong group. I will step to the side and let you continue your complaining.

I think Wyoming manages some units for 60/100. Perhaps BuzzH can confirm or correct that number.

Considering that average of elk births are @ 50/50 cow to bulls, I would say MT’s averages of 12-15/100 to be pretty out of wack. Many general units aren’t even that good, some limited entry are better.