More Problems with Montana's Private Firefighters

[JoseCuervo]

Yeppers, money makes the world go 'round...

Where some see tools to manage Public Lands, others just see $$$$ Dollar $$$$ Signs....

Private firefighting operators working to raise standards
Posted Jun 21, 2004 - 10:18 AM


By JENNIFER McKEE
of the Lee State Bureau

HELENA - Private firefighters in Montana and across the West are trying to raise the standards in their industry and weed out sloppy operators who "charge as much as they can and do as little as they can," one firefighter said.

"The 'Homers and Jethroes' are out there," said Joe King, a former U.S. Forest Service fire boss who is now the chief of operations and training at Montana Wildfire Inc., in Bozeman, referring to private contract firefighters who try to cash in on fire season without spending money on their own training or equipment. "They lead to some of the over-expenditures in a multibillion dollar industry."

For the last three years, a group of contract firefighters - the men and women who in Montana mostly lease out engines with small crews and other equipment - have been trying to set their own standards and eliminate the sloppy operators, King said.


The regional group, called the Northern Rockies Wildfire Contractors Association Inc. recently had its second board meeting in Billings. Across the state, said Curt Milledge of Helena, a board member of the Central Montana Contractor's Association who leases fire equipment to the state, other groups of contractors have formed smaller professional groups aimed at bringing order and standards to the fast-growing industry.

"We need to raise the bar," King said. "We have to instill professionalism."

Montana, like the Forest Service and most other states, does not maintain a fleet of firefighting equipment and personnel needed to battle a major wildfire. Instead, state and federal fire bosses rely on private contractors like King and Milledge to perform much of the work on a fire line.

The problem with the contract firefighting community is twofold, said Bruce Suenram, a Montana City wildfire contractor and president of the Northern Rockies Wildfire Contractors Association. First off, he said, state and federal standards required of all equipment and personnel the government hires to fight fires sometimes go out the window when wildfires blow up.

"When there's a big crisis going on, our companies who invest a lot of money in meeting the standards are getting paid the same as the companies who don't," he said.

Plus, said King, the fire-contracting industry has grown dramatically as wildfires increased in recent years and acquired at least the perception of a good way to make a lot of money. That rapid growth has resulted in a kind of chaos, with people jumping into the industry with little knowledge of how to run a successful business. The industry isn't organized.

Suenram said he envisions a day when wildland firefighters - at least in his organization - would police themselves and be better trained, run better businesses and generally operate more efficiently.

Suenram said he believes the fire industry is currently "severely overstocked," and - as has happened before - will likely result in some people going out of business when drought in Montana and the West subsides.

"It's the nature of the fire business," he said. "It periodically cleanses itself."

King said raising the standards won't come without a price to taxpayers. But he said that a better trained, more efficient work force of firefighters and equipment operators will save money in the long run.

But Mike Kopitzke, the fire training officer for the Department of Natural Resources and Conservation's Fire and Aviation Management Bureau in Missoula, disagrees that agencies don't uniformly apply standards.

While Kopitzke said bringing order and professionalism to the contracting community will only make firefighting work better, he disagreed that the government turns a blind eye to standards in the eye of a firestorm.

"I don't believe the agencies are looking the other way," he said. "Our inspectors are trained to inspect equipment."

 

[pawclaws]

"charge as much as they can and do as little as they can,"

Hey man, it's the American way! You wouldn't expect furniture stores to charge less than a 600 percent mark up or jewelry stores to charge less than a 300 percent mark up or oil companies to charge less than a thousand percent mark up now would you??

So you want a volunteer fire fighting force ask for freaking volunteers!

Besides, how do lyou think the Democrats could ever take credit for creating jobs if they couldn't find ways to do less with more?

 

[BuzzH]

Paws,

It isnt just about money or the American way.

The problem I have with the scab crews is that they arent trained properly. They dont fight fire efficiently, they get themselves, or someone else, hurt or dead.

I've worked around lots of scab fire fighters, you're lucky if you can even GET them to a fire, even more lucky if you arent baby-sitting once you get there, and extremely lucky if you can get them to work.

The fact is, the contractor may make some good money, but the average pulaski motor on the ground doesnt make squat. Its just not an efficiently run program, and as the article stated, it needs to be cleaned up.

 

[JoseCuervo]

And that is why you end up with 8 of them dead, along the road in Oregon....

 

[pawclaws]

License them!

 

[BuzzH]

Paws,

Already do, all they have to do is pass a couple basic fire-fighting courses that the average 4th grader could pass. Then do a pack test...and they're "licensed".

Its great to put on a week long course and watch a bunch of scab fire-fighters sleeping through the class nursing a hang-over...recovering just in time for happy hour.

 

[pawclaws]

Let the firefighters write the certification and license requirements. Bet you a dollar some schmuck in state personnel wrote it, not to make it easy; but because they thought there just isn't anything to fire fighting. Of course they just might have written it for Montana residents too!

 

[ELKCHSR]

LOL!!! this is really good...
Here are two individuals that just hammer me all the time about wadeing into things they don't believe I could possibly have any understanding of...HAHAHA!!!

I know Buzz has been fire fighting, but in reality how long has that been?
Things have changed dramatically, the training and qualifications aren't any thing like it was when you were in. No different than when I was in the Navy, it is a new place, new rules, different way's of doing things...
Yes, there are people out there that really shouldn't be there, I would put this challenge to you two. Show me a trade that doesn't have it's dead beats.
Now to gunner...You are really good

You have never done more than play in camp fires and read some dribble coming out of papers.
I do know Joe King, very nice guy, very upfront and he is absolutly right. To a point. I have even had classes thru Joe, and he is an excellent teacher. He has competition out there, he is also a private contractor and has his agendas. As do we all I would imagine. I could get all pissy as some do. But will not, it's not worth the battle. Especially a battle as this one could easily turn into.
The argument could also go into how many Forest Service Employees die. They pretty much lose people every year... They get the best training... Thirty Mile is the one that comes to the head of all of this any way. The education has been stepped up dramatically since that time, engines used to be old broken trucks with some tank that would hold water tied to the top, and some thing that would put enough pressure out of it to make water come out of the hose. The rules to put one of these trucks on the road now are put thru grueling checks to make sure every thing is absolutly perfect, I know, I put one into service a couple years ago.
As for what the quality was of those that died on the roads last year, that had nothing to do with their ability with fire, it had every thing to do with their ethics after they left the fire.
Lets not talk about things we know nothing about, it makes you look stupid, (Disclaimer: not saying you are).
Because of what I do between the fire seasons, I have to keep up with these issues to pass them on to every one as we go along...

 

[pawclaws]

What do you mean; ... with their ethics... Chaser? What could have possibly been so important that these knotheads would give up their lives?

 

[JoseCuervo]

ElkCheese struggles to see the difference between FS employees (Helitack) getting killed while fighting fires and a bunch of Private Contractor Scabs getting killed while being liquoured up.

 

[pawclaws]

Jesus Christ! If you are saying those gentlemen were drunk then I don't know what the answer is. I don't think I have ever met anyone older than 12 who is that stupid!!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Welcome to the world of Private Contracting of Government Services....

Where the motto is "The lowest bidder is good enough...."

 

[BuzzH]

Elkcheese,

I've kept up to speed on fire fighting, it hasnt changed much, if at all. And unlike mopshots like you, I was an initial attack fire-fighter. I fought fire from '87-'96.

I think I've paid my dues...and I know I'm more than qualified to comment on wildlfires and the training involved.

On top of 9 tough fire seasons and 100+ initial attack fires, I took 2 fire behaviour courses at the U. of Montana, wildland fire management and wildland fuels management, as well as a whole herd of Forest Service sponsored courses.

My highest number of initial attack fires fought in one season is 26, maximum over-time hours on fires was 730 hours in one season.

But, according to you, I'm talking about something I dont know anything about?

You can't be serious.

Oh, and one more thing from your post...the reason more FS fire-fighters die is because they are the ones put in harms way the most often. They are the ones called to STOP the fire, not run around chasing burning stumpholes...I would have thought even you would have been smart enough to figure that out.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Now there it is... I have learned some thing new! These guy's die just because they are in harms way... One of the idividuals in the article, has been in the buisness for an awful long time, longer than most that have died. He was one that stated, it wasn't because of the inherrent danger these individuals were in that caused their demise, it was because they became complacent in what they were doing and didn't watch what was going on around them. They didn't see the signs that were coming down upon their heads. Just like the individuals that died on Helitack last year in the Salmon area. Think your to good and become complacent, and fire will get you, or a number of other hazards that are out there just waiting for the unsuspecting.
I don't condone drinking in any way, and I would say, they may have gotten their just deserts, I may say that... They shouldn't have been drinking in the first place and fortunatly we have strict regs against it in any shape or form while working.

Heres what I stated to the effect of how I believe.

Yes, there are people out there that really shouldn't be there, I would put this challenge to you two. Show me a trade that doesn't have it's dead beats.

Here is gunners reply.... I am just curios if he really reads any thing, or just glosses over it any more and jumps to the farthest conclusion he can find just to stir controversy...

a bunch of Private Contractor Scabs getting killed while being liquoured up.

Scabs are those that step over picket lines, you may want to brush up on that part of your infinate knowledge so that you can use it in the right terminology...

 

[pawclaws]

Yeah Gunner,that is a bit over the top don't you think.

 

[280]

LOL,,Buzz reminds me of a neighbor I use to have,,no matter what I was doing he had done it bigger, better and longer, like if I was pouring a little concrete he had built the Hoover Dam, if I was putting together the kids swing set he had ran a huge constuction crew, if I was cutting firewood he had fought forest fire, teaching the kids to drive he had been a truck driver, throwing the football around, he had went #1 in the draft but turned if down because it wasn`t enough money, shooting the bow he had been on the olympic archery team,,,claims he had done just about everying for 10 years,,so he should have been 160 years old,,but was only 42

 

[BuzzH]

280,

You spend 15 years working for the USFS...you can expect to see some flame.

Spend 15 years on a scab crew...you can see lots of boot prints, already built fireline and burning stumpholes.

Hey, thats just the way it is.

I'm sorry you're such a loser that you're claim to fame living in Montana is chasing a pack of shit-eating dogs around winter range...

Or is it a pack of hounds being chased by a shit-eater?

 

[280]

buzz you lost me with the hound thing,let me guess you were secret service also and a navy seal before a pro boxer

 

[BuzzH]

280,

Sorry you cant keep up...I have to keep reminding myself that you rode the short bus to school.

 

[ELKCHSR]

HAHAHA!!!! That was good...LMAO!!!!
280 is really funny....