More Illegal Logging!

[Ithaca 37]

"GRANTS PASS, Ore. - A federal judge Thursday stopped further logging on three old growth timber sales on the Willamette National Forest until he decides whether the U.S. Forest Service acted legally in offering the trees for sale......King found that the environmental groups that brought the lawsuit challenging the sales were likely to prevail on the merits of the case, to be heard Sept. 2, and allowing the logging to continue until that time would cause irreparable harm."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0801logginghalted-ON.html

If the Forest Service and the timber companies they're in cahoots with wouldn't break the law the environmentalists wouldn't have to sue them.

 

[lilbiggun]

I get so sick of greenies. Anybody even think that maybe there is more to this story? Ithaca, you always do good research. HAve you look into a different source for this story or do you just read 1 liberal media (arent they all) and automatically blame the logging industry?
I hope everybody who is opposed to logging dont live in a house with a wood frame. I hate hippacrits.

I like ketchikans way of dealing with greenies.
http://www.adn.com/alaska/story/3572962p-3604286c.html

 

[BuzzH]

I'm not as sick of the greenies as I am sick of the process.

In my opinion, there is a proper time and place to address NEPA issues. That time is not after the sale is sold to a buyer. I think its ridiculous that a buyer has to wait 5 years to land a sale, then have NEPA slap them in the face. I'm all for NEPA and responsible/legal timber harvesting, but I hate the after the fact approach.

Why werent these various groups worrying about applying NEPA in 1998 when the sale was still pending? NEPA hasnt changed any since then, that I know of.

My issue here really isnt whether or not the sale is illegal, but rather the plumb crappy approach and timing in the process by the greenies. Stop the sales before they're sold if theres merit to the case, if not, move on to the next one.

I have no problems with the public using NEPA, the courts, etc. they just need to do it in a timely fashion and at the appropriate time. Seems to me this one is kind of an after-thought by the greenies.

 

[Ithaca 37]

lilbig., Anyone can learn to do the research themselves. I'm actually quite inexperienced on computers.

You seem to be saying the FS should be able to conduct illegal sales with impunity. They certainly have enough personnel and experience to know how to follow their own regulations. Without some gummint agency to watchdog the FS, it's up to the public to do it and sue when the FS is doing something illegal. What's the alternative at this point, let the FS do whatever they want and ignore illegal activity by them? You should be thankful there are citizens groups that became concerned long ago about gummint agencies violating their own regulations and started doing something about it. There have been many thousands of regulation violations by the FS. I am familiar with individual timber sales that have hundreds of violations.

 

[BuzzH]

Ithaca, no I'm not saying the FS should be able to illegally set up sales and not have to follow NEPA, BMP's, etc.

You are also correct in that there have been many illegal sales in the past. You're also correct that the FS and its personell should know the process well enough to ensure their sales are legal. However, part of the problem comes in from having to wait 5 years for approval. I'd challenge that the "greenies" also dropped the ball by not addressing their concerns in the 5 year period before the chain saws fired up.

It also seems to me that there needs to be at least some of the responsibility put on the "greenies" to file their complaints before the process is that far along.

At the point of this sale, there are no winners in my opinion. The tax payers have paid a buttload of money to get those sales set up, EA's written, put up for bid, marked, logging contractors set up, the mill probably has taken many orders under the assumption they have the raw materials, etc.

Now, WHAM!, heres comes a group at this point and stops part of the sale.

I'll be the first in line to say that illegal timber sales are wrong, no doubt about it. But my complaint is why in the hell did they wait so long to address the issue?

This is exactly the way NEPA will lose its teeth and why the public will lose faith in the system. That could potentially be one heck of a lot more damaging than losing 300 acres of old growth.

Both sides need to get their acts together.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Buzz, I meant to address that very issue in my prior post but forgot. Here's what I think the situation is: It's a matter of time, resources and personnel at the watchdog groups offices. I just don't think they are able to follow every sale from the beginning of the process. So the only way they are able to do anything is watch for sales that have been approved and then inspect them. I know that leads to more delays, but until the watchdog groups have thousands more people to track all these issues their reaction process is going to stay as it is now.

If I had 500 volunteers to assign to watching and participating in all the BLM, FS, Army Corp. of Engineers, FERC dam relicensing, Fish and Game, salmon, air and water quality, Dept of Agriculture, Fish & Wildlife Service, State of Idaho Land Board, State Legislature, local irrigation district, local mosquito abatement district, and all the other local, state and federal processes that are going on right here in Idaho I could keep every one of those 500 volunteers busy 60 hours a week watchdogging everything. And they still wouldn't be able to keep track of it all.

So all the watchdog groups can do is react to the most urgent crises's as they arise. I'm real serious about this. I've been in charge of forming and guiding committees to watch all these issues we face every week of the year in Idaho. I had twelve committees reporting to me on their progress and I easily could have used another twenty committees with four or five good volunteers on each one. It's an overwhelming problem.

 

[1_pointer]

I agree with Buzz, these all had the public comment period and the issues should be addressed then. After the fact I think will allow lawsuits from the opposing side, thus S-L-O-W-I-N-G down the system even more.

 

[BuzzH]

Ithaca, I'm totally in agreement with you that there is a ton of various agencies that need watching. Its also a daunting task.

The only thing I question, in this particular case, is the fact they had an open comment period and five years to get the scoop on these sales. If it was a "crisis" why didnt they act on it sooner?

I agree with the whole process, including filing lawsuits.

I'd be in full agreement with this lawsuit if they had protested the sale form the get go and were using this as a last resort to their concerns. But, it sounds to me like they stumbled onto this one, didnt care about it from 1998-2002 (probably didnt comment in the initial round) and all of a sudden its a priority and a crisis!!!

The green groups are just as informed of the correct process as the FS, loggers, etc.

Granted, I dont know all the particulars, maybe they have protested it all along, but I highly doubt they did from the sound of the article, and the fact that part of it is already harvested.

I just think the process (NEPA) need not be abused by either side, and this particular case reeks of abuse to me.

 

[Michaelr]

Damm it!!!!!!!

Buzz you gotta stop

I actually agree with you again

Nice posts..

 

[BigHornyRam]

Nice posts Buzz! You are starting to come around to your senses. I think what happened in the Kootenai recently had a lot to do with the green weenies filing suit on this one and many more cuts to come. The greenies are just cutting their own throat IMO.

Ithaca,

Looks like even Buzz has you figured out.

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 08-04-2003 19:43: Message edited by: BigHornyRam ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

So should an illegal sale be allowed to proceed because it wasn't caught in the NEPA process?

 

[BuzzH]

Ithaca, that is what I call a good question, and a tough one, and one that I may not be able to answer...

However, my answer is YES.

And heres why, there has to be a process.

That doesnt mean that I'm against NEPA, against citizens rights to watch the FS, appeal sales, etc. etc.

They absolutely should have that right, and the public should be given adequate time to comment, check out the proposed sale, read the EA or EIS, file a lawsuit, inspect the site, etc. etc.

However, if during that process, no groups, citizens, hippies, greenies, hunters, etc. take the time research it or appeal it, well there reaches a point where I'd tell them too bad. You've had time, you've had the opportunity (in this case 5 years), the sales been bid on bought and sold...end of story.

That accomplishes a couple things. One is it gives some assurance to the buyer, and two sets up a fair process for everybody.

Despite what many think, the FS is run by humans, not freaking robots. I understand that the FS employees are expected to be perfect, read a crystal ball for future affects of their actions, and please everybody and every interest group...its a tough job.

The fact is, things get overlooked, people make mistakes in the USFS, same as things get overlooked until the last second by the protesters, which is what I believe happened in this case.

There just has to be a fair process with time lines.

I've argued the same thing about the wolf issue...

The people that didnt take the time to comment or protest at the proper time, well, its too late to drain the swamp when you're up to your ass in gators. That was a fair process, adequate time to comment, adequate time for ANYONE and EVERYBODY to comment.

Would it be proper for a welfare rancher to now dig up something that was supposedly illegal about the reintroduction and have all the wolves killed?

Hell no, the process has been completed, the people spoke, done deal.

I dont expect anyone else to agree with me, I just want a fair and just system that isnt abused...I know wishful thinking

For what its worth, we still dont know that this sale wont go through...I have a feeling it will once yet another EA is written, at the tax payers expense. Be nice to see a follow up on this one.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Buzz, I understand everything you're saying. It's a real tough moral, ethical and legal dilemma. The problem is just what I mentioned earlier; it's up to private citizens to be watchdogs over gummint agencies and it's an overwhelming job. It's very unfortunate that we can't trust a gummint agency to follow the law, but that's the situation. They'll do whatever they want and wait to see if anyone sues them. If no watchdog figures out what's going on they get away with it.

 

[BigHornyRam]

No Ithaca,

What is an overwhelming job is what the Forest Service has to do to get a timber sale to go through. With all the games the green groups play, there is no chance that the F. S. can opperate anywhere close to break even. Then when they lose money, you use that against them as well. The general public understands this, is fed up with it, and it is time to change the laws. Be honest Ithaca. This is all about bankrupting the U. S. timber industry and you know it. Buzz and Pointer can't even side with you on this one. YOU LOSE!

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 08-05-2003 07:14: Message edited by: BigHornyRam ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Big, Ya gotta look at the history of the FS and their abuse of the system to understand why the watchdog groups originated in the first place. They sure didn't spring up because the FS was doing everything legally. It's kinda like the chicken before the egg question, except in this case we know the illegal activities came before the lawsuits. Well, at least some of us know it. You probably don't.

Maybe you think the lawsuits came first and caused the illegal actions.

 

[Michaelr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It's very unfortunate that we can't trust a gummint agency to follow the law, but that's the situation. They'll do whatever they want and wait to see if anyone sues them. If no watchdog figures out what's going on they get away with it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ithaca.......
that statement just don't hold water.
I think just the opposite is true. They are so afraid of provoking the wrath of the radicals that they over do it..
Like Buzz said they are people and for the most part are trying to do the best they can.

Talk about being between the rock and hard place

 

[Ithaca 37]

mike, it's real obvious you don't know the history of the FS rules and regulations violations in Idaho. Maybe they're a little more concerned now than 10 years ago, but it's only because the watchdog groups started suing them. If the watchdogs hadn't sued they would have just kept up business as usual.

 

[Ten Bears]

There are those who learn from the past, and then there are those who must live in the past. IT quit living there, learn from it, and move up to the present with the rest of us.

If the greenie groups can't catch it in the public comment process, then they shouldn't be able to shut down the sale once the saws get started. They have their moment in the sun just like the rest of the public.

 

[Michaelr]

Ithaca,
I have to agree with ten!!

I'm not concerned with water under the bridge.
The here and now is what is important.

 

[Ten Bears]

Did BUZZ hit his head while I've been out tearing up the country on My ATV???

Or maybe is he feeling the mortality of his gubbermint job?