Montana Elk Migrations

[Irrelevant]

One of the things that's interested me the most since getting to know the rocky mountain states is the decline in hunting quality in the Bob/Scapegoat/Spotted Bear area of Montana. Seems like such a storied place with so many older hunting stories associated with it. But I don't understand how the animals actually use the landscape. Do the elk migrate or stay? What about deer and moose? It seems like the entire area is too high in elevation to support many critters during the winter, but maybe the wind keeps west/south faces snow free. I spent a little time on Google but didn't come up with any migration studies for that area, did my google-fu lead me astray or do none exist? If you know of any I would greatly appreciate some links. The more I read about the area the more interested I am in the history and ecology of it.

 

[Schaaf]

I am unaware of any specific migration study in those areas but I suspect if you were able to look back at the analysis done on the Blackleaf, Sun River, and Blackfoot-Clearwater Management Areas you would be able to find information relating to the migrations into those areas.

The animals have plenty of ground to head for cover, I believe there are bigger issues in those herds that FWP has so far shown no desire to look into.

 

[----]

I'm also unaware of any large scale studies, although I do know FWP has collared elk that winter out of the bob in the past.

I would guess 90%+ of the wilderness elk winter outside of the wilderness in the areas Schaaf mentioned above. I have heard in the past that there was a herd that wintered around Danaher Meadows, but that was some time and a much larger elk population ago.

 

[JLS]

Some years a good number of elk will winter in the Sun River, inside of the wilderness.

 

[Irrelevant]

So if you look at a tough winter where they can't winter in the preserve then you're looking at ~3,000 sq miles of summer range only habitat (44 miles Holland lake to rocky mt front x 76 miles from hwy 2 to just north of Ovando)? That's crazy.

 

[JLS]

So if you look at a tough winter where they can't winter in the preserve then you're looking at ~3,000 sq miles of summer range only habitat (44 miles Holland lake to rocky mt front x 76 miles from hwy 2 to just north of Ovando)? That's crazy.

Very little of the Sun River Preserve is winter range. It's mostly calving/summer/fall range. The lower Sun River itself is mostly outside of the Preserve. Some elk will winter in the Sun River basin adjacent to the preserve, but the majority migrate out to the front and the Sun River game range/adjacent ranches.

@Randy11 is correct in that some elk in the past have wintered in the Danaher. I don't know if they still do. Most of the elk in the Scapegoat portion would either migrate towards the Rocky Mountain Front/Falls Creek/Skunk Creek area, or they would winter in the Blackfoot drainage.

I am not all that familiar with elk movement patterns on the west side of the complex. My guess is a lot of the elk from the upper Holland Country, Danaher, Young's Creek will/do migrate to the Blackfoot Clearwater Game Range.

 

[Schaaf]

I am not all that familiar with elk movement patterns on the west side of the complex. My guess is a lot of the elk from the upper Holland Country, Danaher, Young's Creek will/do migrate to the Blackfoot Clearwater Game Range.

Yep. go find a spot up high in the Youngs Creek area in May and you can watch elk head North into the wilderness.

 

[----]

So if you look at a tough winter where they can't winter in the preserve then you're looking at ~3,000 sq miles of summer range only habitat (44 miles Holland lake to rocky mt front x 76 miles from hwy 2 to just north of Ovando)? That's crazy.

FWP conserving the BCWMA and the Sun River WMA are two of the most important conservation decisions in the history of Montana. Those two chunks of land can winter a lot of elk.

Management is a temporary problem, but conserved winter range is permanent. The habitat is waiting for management to allow those elk to come back, and should always be there.

 

[BuzzH]

One of the things that's interested me the most since getting to know the rocky mountain states is the decline in hunting quality in the Bob/Scapegoat/Spotted Bear area of Montana. Seems like such a storied place with so many older hunting stories associated with it. But I don't understand how the animals actually use the landscape. Do the elk migrate or stay? What about deer and moose? It seems like the entire area is too high in elevation to support many critters during the winter, but maybe the wind keeps west/south faces snow free. I spent a little time on Google but didn't come up with any migration studies for that area, did my google-fu lead me astray or do none exist? If you know of any I would greatly appreciate some links. The more I read about the area the more interested I am in the history and ecology of it.

Neffa3,

If you read some of the past history associated with the Bob, and talk to people that hunted there in the 50's, 60s', and 70's it was absolutely some of the best elk hunting found anywhere. I would argue that even in the 80's-early 90's it was still pretty good. I had several friends who hunted and guided the Danaher, Youngs Creek, Big Prairie and all through the central and southern end of the Bob. IMO, winter range is not the problem on the Southern end. Those elk have a lot of choices to winter on places like Ovando/Marcum Mountain, Kleinshmidt Flat, and all sorts of low country around Ovando, Helmville, clear to the BCWMA. I also know that some of those elk winter off the East side of Rogers pass on Sugarloaf, Falls Creek, area...I used to pick up a couple hundred pounds of elk antlers out that way each year. Even then, right before I left for Wyoming (2000) the number of elk antlers I picked the last couple years I lived there was declining. One of the ranches I looked behind for antlers, asked to buy a set of sheds I found off a bull a client of theirs killed, that I found the year before. It, along with 10 of its buddies, were killed on one hillside, in one morning hunt. The next year the same landowner was complaining because they "just aren't finding the sheds like they have in the past"...oh, really?

The issue with the drastic decline in elk in the Bob is not a habitat related issued, its a lead poisoning issue conducted via early rifle hunts starting 9/15 and going until late November/early December. Now, there is no doubt in my mind, that many of the cow elk that summer in the Bob are also subjected to UNLIMITED numbers of cow b-permits in most all of the wintering areas I mentioned above valid clear until the end of the general season (Dec. 1 this year). Those elk are suffering from lead poisoning as well. It makes NO sense to kill elk for just being elk. I don't have a problem with the FWP shooting the elk there in the early fall on unlimited b-permits in September. Those elk are local and probably never see the Bob Marshall...but the ones they're killing in November...yeah, they're killing the wrong elk.

This is another classic case of elk mismanagement, killing elk that are doing what elk are supposed to do...live in the high country in the spring/summer/fall and then migrate out to winter range. What they receive for being elk and migrating to winter range is shot, all through November. It wont be long and those elk b-tags will also be valid in December, January, and February...furthering the problem of killing elk that spend a lot/most of their time in the Bob.

Not to get too far out in the weeds, but I also know that its very likely some of the elk wintering on the BCWMA (Boyd Mtn), come from the Missions, Swan, Flathead Reservation, and some of the country around Game Ridge, Belmont Peak, and Upper Gold Creek. Again, if those elk are subjected to the b-permits, they're killing the wrong elk.

Its a total cluster-shag with nearly all public land elk and deer hunting in Montana right now. I used to think it was about impossible to mismanage whitetail deer...boy, was I wrong about that.

If what I am experiencing was an isolated incident, I probably wouldn't say much, but its pretty much across the board when I talk to some of the best hunters in the State and they see the same things.

Text books should be written on how poorly Montana big-game is managed...as a classic case of what not to do.

 

[Irrelevant]

Holy sh!t, I didn't realize the regs were that liberal in those units. That's an all out war on elk.


We have unit in WA where WDFW is actively trying to keep elk down or completely out to prevent competition with mule deer, and we still don't have seasons anywhere close to that.

 

[Straight Arrow]

"Text books should be written on how poorly Montana big-game is managed...as a classic case of what not to do." And with respect to elk populations, a very sadly tragic epilog to the "BACK FROM THE BRINK" wildlife conservation story of the earlier twentieth century.

 

[BuzzH]

Neffa3,

You don't have to tell me, I've watched this shit happen my whole life...my Dad has watched it his entire life.

Montana Biologists manage in a 1950's time warp, never changing anything, except increasing opportunity.

The most significant change that I've seen since 1979 is the addition of one day in the General rifle deer/elk season starting on Saturday, instead of Sunday. That and the addition of a couple day youth deer rifle season just prior to the Saturday general opener. I'm sure my Dad would say the same thing and he's hunted every year in Montana since 1957.

Why do you think I made those comments that a biologist has the easiest job on the planet? The numbers, as crappy as they are, make no difference and are of no significance when the seasons never change.

Its maddening...and you get called an a-hole because you use their numbers.

How does a Biologist or an entire Agency for that matter, justify using the exact same "management" that they have been using since 1957? How? What possible justification can there be?

Nothing has changed in 60 years? Montana is still the same place it was 60 years ago? Mule deer are doing as well as they were 60 years ago? Whitetail? Winter range hasn't changed? Habitat hasn't changed? None of the changes that impact wildlife over the last 60 years warrants no change to the season structure?

It defies common sense, but that's the BS lies that the Department and their employees deliver, and expect people educated in resource management, and 50 years experience hunting there to believe? Sure, I get bullchitting the recent move-in's, they don't know any better...but the people that lived and hunted in Montana through the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's that know the difference,...they expect those people to buy their garbage?

I got news, things have changed significantly in Montana in the last 60 years, they've changed a lot in the last 30. Its well past time for the FWP to hit the smelling salts and start managing in todays world, not 1950.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Its maddening...and you get called an a-hole because you use their numbers.

Particularly when they need to look no further than their southern border to find multiple examples of how to manage elk correctly.

 

[BuzzH]

Particularly when they need to look no further than their southern border to find multiple examples of how to manage elk correctly.

Nailed it...Its very difficult for me to find a bad word or thing to say about any biologist in Wyoming or their game management. These guys down here get it, and they actively manage...and they're damn good at it too. They have defined special and opportunity management...minimum bull to cow, buck to doe ratio's...are concerned with cow/calf ratio's, doe/fawn ratio's...and when those aren't met, seasons are adjusted yearly if necessary.

You have no idea how happy I am to wake up every day as a Resident hunter of Wyoming and not Montana....well, actually you do!

 

[Irrelevant]

An early timeline of some hunting/fishing/conservation milestones in Montana.
https://missoulian.com/uncategorize...cle_023eff5c-8de0-5e61-af6e-c0800cfe4cca.html

Then compared to this more recent 2011 report:https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/fhw11-mt.pdf

Some of the take-aways I found were than in 1960 Montana had approximately 600k people, now it's just over a million. In 1961 FWP sold 383k fishing and hunting licenses, in 2011 they're up to 417k (not as high as I would have guessed). However, there is not enough detail to know what the 1961 number actually was, they were counting individual tags/licences (for for each deer and elk), then the current number for all hunting tags issued is 986k (https://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/Subpages/LicenseInfo/Natl Hunting License Report 2017.pdf)

Anyway, it is interesting to say the least, and pretty depressing. There's landscapes in MT I really want to hunt, but with limited resources and time, other states have always gotten to nod above MT.

 

[BuzzH]

neffa3,

The best conclusion you have come to is that Montana is way down on your list as a NR hunter. This exact kind of information needs to be presented to NR hunters so they can make an informed decision.

If you have access to private ground, you can still find some decent-good hunting in Montana, but its an absolute joke on public land.

I have kept some extensive hunting journals most all of my life and the difference in hunting now compared to 15-20-30 years ago in Montana...it breaks my heart, it really does. I remember one day in 2006 that I shot the 22nd 4x4 or better whitetail buck that I saw THAT day, by noon. In 2017 I hunted the same exact country, at the same exact time frame, for 11 days and saw 26 whitetail bucks total....a vast majority of them 2.5 years old or younger. I saw no bucks that were over 4.5, not a single one. This same area, my family and I have killed 52 elk there between 1980-2015...in those 11 days, with excellent snow conditions, I cut ONE elk track. Its never been a great elk area, but good enough in the past that someone in our family usually got an elk. Some years maybe even 2-3 elk between us. Not now, you're flat winning the lottery seeing a legal bull there, hell sometimes winning the lottery seeing an elk period. Many times, just finding more than a handful of tracks makes your day. Funny thing is the numbers by the FWP suggest there were 83 bulls killed in that unit in 2017. What's even more ridiculous is that the total elk numbers were supposedly 750 or so observed in 2016. I called the Biologist and asked what the bull to cow ratio was for the area, he told me 8-10 bulls per 100 cows. Mind you, the classification takes place after bulls have migrated onto the BCWMA, coming from all kinds of surrounding country that we already discussed, including bulls out of the Bob. But, lets just pretend that those elk are available before they reach the BCWMA during the hunting season. In that population, you're talking best case, 75 bulls in that herd. How is it possible to be killing 83 out of 75 available bulls?

I asked that very question to the biologist and the supervisory biologist...how does that math work? They both told me how they estimate harvest, yada yada...I get it. But then I asked, if they thought they really were killing a majority of the legal bulls each year as their numbers suggest. The answer was "yes, we think that's true". Is that correct management? How is that justifiable? How?

Again, I really just don't even know what questions to ask in regard to that kind of "management"...and even though I expect nothing in the way of correct management at all anymore, the FWP still finds new, and creative ways to disappoint me.

I would never recommend a NR without access to private land waste their money, time and effort in Montana anymore. Its not very hard to find much better public land elk hunting in just about any other state.

 

[Irrelevant]

Its not very hard to find much better public land elk hunting in just about any other state.

Funny story, I'm going to WY for elk this year

 

[Mtnhunter1]

neffa3,

The best conclusion you have come to is that Montana is way down on your list as a NR hunter. This exact kind of information needs to be presented to NR hunters so they can make an informed decision.

If you have access to private ground, you can still find some decent-good hunting in Montana, but its an absolute joke on public land.

I have kept some extensive hunting journals most all of my life and the difference in hunting now compared to 15-20-30 years ago in Montana...it breaks my heart, it really does. I remember one day in 2006 that I shot the 22nd 4x4 or better whitetail buck that I saw THAT day, by noon. In 2017 I hunted the same exact country, at the same exact time frame, for 11 days and saw 26 whitetail bucks total....a vast majority of them 2.5 years old or younger. I saw no bucks that were over 4.5, not a single one. This same area, my family and I have killed 52 elk there between 1980-2015...in those 11 days, with excellent snow conditions, I cut ONE elk track. Its never been a great elk area, but good enough in the past that someone in our family usually got an elk. Some years maybe even 2-3 elk between us. Not now, you're flat winning the lottery seeing a legal bull there, hell sometimes winning the lottery seeing an elk period. Many times, just finding more than a handful of tracks makes your day. Funny thing is the numbers by the FWP suggest there were 83 bulls killed in that unit in 2017. What's even more ridiculous is that the total elk numbers were supposedly 750 or so observed in 2016. I called the Biologist and asked what the bull to cow ratio was for the area, he told me 8-10 bulls per 100 cows. Mind you, the classification takes place after bulls have migrated onto the BCWMA, coming from all kinds of surrounding country that we already discussed, including bulls out of the Bob. But, lets just pretend that those elk are available before they reach the BCWMA during the hunting season. In that population, you're talking best case, 75 bulls in that herd. How is it possible to be killing 83 out of 75 available bulls?

I asked that very question to the biologist and the supervisory bt...how does that math work? They both told me how they estimate harvest, yada yada...I get it. But then I asked, if they thought they really were killing a majority of the legal bulls each year as their numbers suggest. The answer was "yes, we think that's true". Is that correct management? How is that justifiable? How?

Again, I really just don't even know what questions to ask in regard to that kind of "management"...and even though I expect nothing in the way of correct management at all anymore, the FWP still finds new, and creative ways to disappoint me.

I would never recommend a NR without access to private land waste their money, time and effort in Montana anymore. Its not very hard to find much better public land elk hunting in just about any other state.

Very well said Buzz! 100% agree!

 

[MTGomer]

Buzz, where is the population data published from the aerial surveys? I looked a bit but I’m not finding it.

 

[bonniecutthroat]

An old roommate of mine while in grad school did his masters on elk movement in western MT with a focus on the southern Bob. I couldn’t find a pdf via google scholar but I attached a screenshot in case you want to track it down. Mark Hurley (the author) now leads Idaho’s mule deer program I think.