Montana Elk and Deer- By the Numbers

[jmcd]

I really doubt that. mtmuley

Oh ok

 

[Bambistew]

Nice sanctimonious cry-story.
I apologize, I should clarify that my comments are for Mt wardens. You must be a gw or related to one???
I too have never seen one in or been checked in the field in MT. I’ve literally never had one chase down an encroachment that I’ve turned in…… just give me the exact same excuses you just did. When I’ve kept pressure on them to do their job, they’ve told me that “it’ll never hold in court.” I guess they’re too busy shooting potential state record bighorn sheep on stings that …… don’t hold up in court…..
Never see them patrolling known problem areas for violations taking a preventative approach either. Makes me we wonder what we spend the $36 on.
My experiences in Wy and ID are 180deg opposite. They actually patrol high-use areas, actually cite violators, etc. Maybe I don’t get out enough……..

Btw, You’ve not met me. I’m not a poacher, just sick of excuses and apathy. The WHOLE fwp needs a clean out. Including the enforcement side

You let a botched sting rattle around in your head for that long? haha There was a reason they tried to get him, and it wasn't jealousy.

You can't reasonably assume one guy can patrol such huge areas and and catch everything and talk to everyone, but maybe I misjudged your intelligence. The area I hunt in SW MT, has one GW to patrol a valley that's 75 miles long and 30 miles wide, with dozens of trail heads and fishing access sites, and boat launches. The GW also patrols and checks your boats... It would take a week to just drive all the mountain and county roads in the area he patrols, maybe more. What about trails? He supposed to grow wings and fly up mountains? How does one guy patrol it all? Its almost two hours on the highway from one end of his jurisdiction to the other. During peak hunting and fishing season there could be 2-3000 hunter/fishermen running around. But he's not doing his job? Laugh'n.

Your anecdotal stories are silly. Chase down an encroachment, as in trespassing? Kept the pressure on to get your desired outcome? As in waste time chasing after something with no evidence, and if prosecuted would likely lose? Seems like a great waste of time and effort (like you mentioned they do). I realize that's frustrating, but why spend $10000 to chase down a $75 trespassing ticket? Seems like they are doing their job.

 

[jmcd]

You let a botched sting rattle around in your head for that long? haha There was a reason they tried to get him, and it wasn't jealousy.

You can't reasonably assume one guy can patrol such huge areas and and catch everything and talk to everyone, but maybe I misjudged your intelligence. The area I hunt in SW MT, has one GW to patrol a valley that's 75 miles long and 30 miles wide, with dozens of trail heads and fishing access sites, and boat launches. The GW also patrols and checks your boats... It would take a week to just drive all the mountain and county roads in the area he patrols, maybe more. What about trails? He supposed to grow wings and fly up mountains? How does one guy patrol it all? Its almost two hours on the highway from one end of his jurisdiction to the other. During peak hunting and fishing season there could be 2-3000 hunter/fishermen running around. But he's not doing his job? Laugh'n.

Your anecdotal stories are silly. Chase down an encroachment, as in trespassing? Kept the pressure on to get your desired outcome? As in waste time chasing after something with no evidence, and if prosecuted would likely lose? Seems like a great waste of time and effort (like you mentioned they do). I realize that's frustrating, but why spend $10000 to chase down a $75 trespassing ticket? Seems like they are doing their job.

It’s funny if you read what you have written. You make my point…. they can’t possibly catch ‘em all, can’t cover the area adequately, it’ll cost too much to prosecute……excuse after excuse…. Geezuz, why have them?
I bet we’d both agree on having EFFECTIVE enforcement but, what we have now is a joke. You think they actually make a dent in the poaching that goes on? Trespassing? Do you think maybe the access problem we have on private land is made worse by lack of enforcement, and landowner intolerance for that? Easier to lease to an outfitter….

I’ll ask this, if it pays so horribly and sucks so bad, why take the job? In this economy it ain’t hard to find another one? If no one applied, maybe they’d be forced to change pay?? I’ve known a few guys that tried and would’ve given their left nut to get a game warden job, and never could. There must be some reason guys keep applying ???????
I digress…..


This thread/poll is actually really interesting and I don’t want to further detract from it with a tit for tat. I’m just pointing out that I think there are other problems with FWP, including enforcement. I live here and see it every day and have for 48 years. It is a real issue, especially with private land owners. You obviously don’t agree with me, and I don’t give a shit. That’s what makes the world go round. If you want to talk to me further about it, feel free to PM me. Or better yet. Look me up when you’re in the area of Southwest Montana that you hunt and maybe I’ll meet you for a beer.

 

[Gerald Martin]

It’s funny if you read what you have written. You make my point…. they can’t possibly catch ‘em all, can’t cover the area adequately, it’ll cost too much to prosecute……excuse after excuse…. Geezuz, why have them?
I bet we’d both agree on having EFFECTIVE enforcement but, what we have now is a joke. You think they actually make a dent in the poaching that goes on? Trespassing? Do you think maybe the access problem we have on private land is made worse by lack of enforcement, and landowner intolerance for that? Easier to lease to an outfitter….

I’ll ask this, if it pays so horribly and sucks so bad, why take the job? In this economy it ain’t hard to find another one? If no one applied, maybe they’d be forced to change pay?? I’ve known a few guys that tried and would’ve given their left nut to get a game warden job, and never could. There must be some reason guys keep applying ???????
I digress…..


This thread/poll is actually really interesting and I don’t want to further detract from it with a tit for tat. I’m just pointing out that I think there are other problems with FWP, including enforcement. I live here and see it every day and have for 48 years. It is a real issue, especially with private land owners. You obviously don’t agree with me, and I don’t give a shit. That’s what makes the world go round. If you want to talk to me further about it, feel free to PM me. Or better yet. Look me up when you’re in the area of Southwest Montana that you hunt and maybe I’ll meet you for a beer.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions about anything, but why would we focus on the outliers who don’t follow the rules when the biggest issue currently is that the policies of deer and elk management on public land ( rules) are unsustainable?

The majority of hunters follow the rules. Even at that current management policy is yielding a diminishing result for the majority of hunters. Isn’t that the easiest issue to fix before we focus on peripherals?

 

[jmcd]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions about anything, but why would we focus on the outliers who don’t follow the rules when the biggest issue currently is that the policies of deer and elk management on public land ( rules) are unsustainable?

The majority of hunters follow the rules. Even at that current management policy is yielding a diminishing result for the majority of hunters. Isn’t that the easiest issue to fix before we focus on peripherals?

Sure. But a HUGE reason that quality of experience and population dynamics is lack of access. Or as Buzz would refer to, the ranchers harboring all the elk. And a huge reason, for that, I think, is that landowners have no incentive to put up with poaching and trespassing, and find it easier to lease it. If we had better enforcement to discourage it maybe better access possibilities?

 

[Bambistew]

It’s funny if you read what you have written. You make my point…. they can’t possibly catch ‘em all, can’t cover the area adequately, it’ll cost too much to prosecute……excuse after excuse…. Geezuz, why have them?
I bet we’d both agree on having EFFECTIVE enforcement but, what we have now is a joke. You think they actually make a dent in the poaching that goes on? Trespassing? Do you think maybe the access problem we have on private land is made worse by lack of enforcement, and landowner intolerance for that? Easier to lease to an outfitter….

I’ll ask this, if it pays so horribly and sucks so bad, why take the job? In this economy it ain’t hard to find another one? If no one applied, maybe they’d be forced to change pay?? I’ve known a few guys that tried and would’ve given their left nut to get a game warden job, and never could. There must be some reason guys keep applying ???????
I digress…..


This thread/poll is actually really interesting and I don’t want to further detract from it with a tit for tat. I’m just pointing out that I think there are other problems with FWP, including enforcement. I live here and see it every day and have for 48 years. It is a real issue, especially with private land owners. You obviously don’t agree with me, and I don’t give a shit. That’s what makes the world go round. If you want to talk to me further about it, feel free to PM me. Or better yet. Look me up when you’re in the area of Southwest Montana that you hunt and maybe I’ll meet you for a beer.

You said they were the most worthless people on the planet... which I really don't think you believe. I get you're frustrated, but its not the game wardens fault the system in place is the way it is. They still seem to write a lot of tickets and bust a lot of poachers. Do they make a dent? I have no clue, doubt anyone knows how much poaching really goes on. Still plenty of poaching that goes on in ID and WY too.

I'm not making excesses, just pointing out the obvious that what you want/think should happen are complete opposite of reality. Looks like there is a position open, you could apply and make a difference! $25/hr plus benefits, you'll probably get in 4-500hrs of OT a year or so.

 

[jmcd]

……..Looks like there is a position open, you could apply and make a difference! $25/hr plus benefits, you'll probably get in 4-500hrs of OT a year or so.

You first. You’ve already got the excuse making part down pat. Ought to be easy

 

[jmcd]

Back to the topic of this thread, I think we HAVE to go to some version of pick your weapon and pick an area.
Commission has to be made up some other way than gov appointee. There is too much politics and everyone loses then.
We may as well not have biologists now a days either, because we never listen to them. Why? Politics

Some serious hard choices need made. Unpopular choices that will slap everyone’s ass a little. -Or- keeping blaming the other guy and making excuses, and watch things keep going in the toilet.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Sure. But a HUGE reason that quality of experience and population dynamics is lack of access. Or as Buzz would refer to, the ranchers harboring all the elk. And a huge reason, for that, I think, is that landowners have no incentive to put up with poaching and trespassing, and find it easier to lease it. If we had better enforcement to discourage it maybe better access possibilities?

Cut back on the hunting pressure and numbers of hunters and you will see much less trespassing and game law violations.

Too much competition for a diminished resource fuels the temptation for some hunters to break the rules.

Having a reasonable opportunity to experience success and see game on legally accessible lands is going to be a better approach than trying to instill fear of law breaking by additional enforcement.

Montana’s hunting culture needs to evolve as well to value the resource higher than the entitlement mentality that seems to be the average hunter’s perspective.

 

[jmcd]

Cut back on the hunting pressure and numbers of hunters and you will see much less trespassing and game law violations.

Too much competition for a diminished resource fuels the temptation for some hunters to break the rules.

Having a reasonable opportunity to experience success and see game on legally accessible lands is going to be a better approach than trying to instill fear of law breaking by additional enforcement.

Montana’s hunting culture needs to evolve as well to value the resource higher than the entitlement mentality that seems to be the average hunter’s perspective.

Totally agree.

 

[SwaggyD]

Huh. The Wardens near me don't act like that. Matter of fact, they have taken down many dirt bags I have called in. Probly some other Region 3 guys could chime in? mtmuley

I know one. Great dude. Fished walleye with him July last year. Prolly do it again this summer.

 

[corndog1]

If you can't get a shot at a bull in 7-10 days in MT you suck, period. I understand there are number of problems, but it's called hunting, sometimes you gotta figure it out.

I suck

 

[sacountry]

Sure. But a HUGE reason that quality of experience and population dynamics is lack of access. Or as Buzz would refer to, the ranchers harboring all the elk. And a huge reason, for that, I think, is that landowners have no incentive to put up with poaching and trespassing, and find it easier to lease it. If we had better enforcement to discourage it maybe better access possibilities?

I do want to reinforce what's being said here. There have been statements made by landowners on other threads about weighing leasing vs block. With the Warden pool running so thin, choosing the block program puts onus on the landowner to police his/her land. When choosing to lease, the outfitter vigorously will patrol the property.

Poaching is obviously a problem, but the need for more Wardens, at least for me, is that they would be an integral part of getting more access.