Missouri Deer Farmers

[Big Fin]

A predictable course of events. Deer farmers don't like the measures implemented to protect wild deer herds from diseases and escapement, so they go to the legislature and ask for their activities to be transferred to the state Department of Agriculture.

Happens in most every state. And once governed by the Ag Department, the requirements for double fencing, buffers, diseases reporting and testing, and numerous other risk management mechanisms are erased. Bonding for damage to wild herds is eliminated. The state then becomes the advocate of the industry, almost a Department of Penned Shooting Tourism.

Happens in most every state. And, now you see it happening in Missouri.

http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/1402531398a9kzgrujzmv

Yet, when you say penned shooting is not hunting as most would define it, the deer farmers scream and yell that they are being picked on; that you are dividing the hunting world. Well, I have a hard time recognizing your activities as being hunting, when you are petitioning your legislature to treat you as a farming operation.

If you self-identify that you are a farming operation, then don't try to selll me on the BS idea that you are a free range wildlife operation. You can't have it both ways.

I don't really care if people want to shoot penned deer. Knock yoursefl out. But, petitioning to your legislature to treat you as an ag operation is proof positive that shooting penned deer is not hunting; rather farming of domesticated animals.

This stuff is pretty laughable. The hypocrisy of the industry is what gets me chuckling, not the fact that people are killing deer in pens. I am sure B&C and P&Y will be getting more hate mail over this issue. Glad to see them interjecting into the discussion.

 

[Jwill]

Just remember, if you buy venison jerky, deer pee, or any other deer/elk type product, you're likely supporting these asshats.

 

[krshntr81]

Missouri has a great department of conservation that has been fighting this tooth and nail! When you go to their website the first thing that pops up is the MDC plan to stop CWD and how these game farms need to be properly managed. I hope the governor veto's this bill, but I am hearing that even if he does it might get overridden.

 

[roadhunter]

Who regulates elk farms in Montana such as this one?
http://www.montanaelk.com/

 

[Big Fin]

Who regulates elk farms in Montana such as this one?
http://www.montanaelk.com/

Not sure. The game farmers were successful in getting their oversight to be at the hands of the Department of Commerce. I don't think that has changed, but not sure.

The issue at hand, whether or not penned shooting is hunting, does not apply to that elk farm, or others in MT, as a ballot initiative passed about ten years ago that allows these facilities to raise elk/deer for markets, but does not allow the selling of hunts.

 

[spook12]

The issue at hand, whether or not penned shooting is hunting, does not apply to that elk farm, or others in MT, as a ballot initiative passed about ten years ago that allows these facilities to raise elk/deer for markets, but does not allow the selling of hunts.

HUGE point. If a landowner wants to sell farm raised venison on the open market then that's great and he should be under the oversight of the the livestock commission. If the landowner wants to sell a ''Hunt'' or a ''Shoot'' he should be under the oversight of that states wildlife agency.

Some States wildlife agencies in an effort to distance themselves from pen hunting have opened the door for that industry to set their own standards.

 

[elk_hunter]

Wow! Just wow!

 

[roadhunter]

Not sure. The game farmers were successful in getting their oversight to be at the hands of the Department of Commerce. I don't think that has changed, but not sure.

The issue at hand, whether or not penned shooting is hunting, does not apply to that elk farm, or others in MT, as a ballot initiative passed about ten years ago that allows these facilities to raise elk/deer for markets, but does not allow the selling of hunts.

From a standpoint of infecting wild animals I think they are both the same. If a wild animal can walk up to a fence and touch noses with a penned animal they both pose the same risk to wild animals. Doesn't make a difference if we are talking about penned elk in Montana or penned deer in Missouri. The only difference is one animal is slaughtered and the other shot. How they are killed makes little to no difference in the risk they pose of infecting wild animals.

I am somewhat surprised how hunters like yourself seem to have no problem with elk and deer farms in your own state but you do have a problem with elk and deer farms in other states who let people shoot them instead of slaughtering them like they do in Montana. Why do you care if one guy in Missouri calls it hunting and the guys in Montana call it meat production? They both pose similar risks to wild animals which I thought was the real concern here but I must be mistaken.

http://roosterridgepheasantclub.com/
What about Pheasant farms? Are you concerned with the pen raised birds mingling with the wild birds or it is more about a problem with the people who shoot them calling it hunting?

To me it's all the same as it poses a risk to wild animals. That is my problem with these game farms, not arguing if it is hunting or not. If some guy in Missouri wants to call it hunting and put his name in a SCI record book, I could care less. I care about the deer he shot touching noses with a wild deer and spreading disease to other wild animals.

 

[BuzzH]

I think theres a two fold discussion.

One is the risks associated with pen raised mutants infecting wild deer/elk. That is the MAIN issue I have with any game farm.

The second has to do with infecting the sport of hunting. Shooting pen raised mutants isnt hunting...never has been and never will be. I have never supported it, and never will.

Both are valid reasons to do away with penned shooting operations as well as game farms in general...nothing to gain and everything to lose.

SCI is a joke.

Pheasants are non-native. Why would anyone be concerned about pen raised, non-natives, co-mingling with wild hatched non-natives?

Makes no sense.

 

[roadhunter]

So you are saying that pen raised birds pose no threat to wild birds? I did not know that. I just assumed with all the medication/vaccinations/antibiotics they are given that they could spread disease like most other animals. Thanks for the info.

http://animalrights.about.com/od/wi...ed-For-Hunting-Partridges-Quail-Pheasants.htm
Hunting Ethics and Animal Rights



Some hunters question the ethics of releasing captive-bred birds for hunting and telling hunters when and where to get them. The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife shares this concern somewhat, and does not announce all pheasant release dates "because we want to minimize crowding at the release sites and to promote the highest hunter ethics possible." Another problem is the risks of the spread of disease, increased predation, and genetic degradation of the wild population.


Wyoming game and fish seems to think they pose a threat.
http://trib.com/lifestyles/recreati...cle_41067493-f391-59b8-8c69-efa23eddb4cd.html

Game and Fish officials decided to destroy the brood stock in late May, hoping it hadn’t spread to the chicks. As the eggs hatched, chicks died at an abnormally high rate and others showed severe symptoms of the disease. Tate and other officials decided the eggs and chicks should also be destroyed and the facility decontaminated because of the potential threat to humans and the risk of spreading it to other birds.

 

[1_pointer]

roadie- Might want to brush up on some reading comprehension...

 

[roadhunter]

roadie- Might want to brush up on some reading comprehension...

Feel free to straighten me out or point out my comprehension mistake. I'm sure I'm guilty.

My post was simply pointing out situations where game and fish officials from 2 states were concerned with infected pen raised pheasants passing diseases to other animals and even humans???

Buzz said it wasn't a problem when pen raised birds mingled with wild birds. I did some research and found that according to the articles they could indeed pass diseases to other animals. From what I have read it seems pen raised pheasants/quail/chukkar/etc have plenty of opportunity to catch/transmit diseases to other animals they come in contact with. Buzz may be right that there is no threat and it is impossible for a pen raided pheasant to pass a disease to another animal but I have yet to see any confirmation of this, most of what I find shows that it is indeed possible. The more research I do it seems Pheasants are much like chickens with all sorts of possible problems.

I believe Buzz does not think it is a problem because pheasants are non native. Plenty of animals who are non native and they can pass disease to wild animals as well so I'm not sure I understand the "non native" line of thinking but I do see the perspective. Heck most of us are non native to these areas as well. Seems like some non native goats co mingled with BHS recently and led to the sheep being killed. Perfect example of possible disease transmission from non native domestic animals to native animals. .

As Buzz touched on there are 2 parts to this discussion. The risk they pose to wild animals is the big one IMO and the lesser one is more about calling this "hunting" as opposed to "shooting" domestic animals. It's fun to get all fired up about something going on in Missouri and talk about how terrible it is, which is 100% true. Then when you realize that the same thing goes on in your own state (only difference being how the animal is dispatched) it makes you realize that the problem is not just in Missouri, it's in your own back yard. Heck I'm not even sure there are any states who dont' have some sort of game farms for shooting/hunting/or meat production that poses a threat to the wild animals living around these operations.

 

[Big Fin]

I am somewhat surprised how hunters like yourself seem to have no problem with elk and deer farms in your own state but you do have a problem with elk and deer farms in other states who let people shoot them instead of slaughtering them like they do in Montana. Why do you care if one guy in Missouri calls it hunting and the guys in Montana call it meat production? They both pose similar risks to wild animals which I thought was the real concern here but I must be mistaken.

I'm surprised how hunters like yourself seem to have no problem making assumptions that give the appearance of being uninformed about the position of others they are taking to task.

Not sure where you saw anything where I support these disease factories in either instance, whether Missouri or Montana. If you can find it, post it up.

Where did I say I have no problem with these disease factories being in Montana? Just because it is allowed under Montana law, doesn't mean I like the idea. If you read much of what I have written about the topic on this site, you might be a little more informed about the positions I have and might not make such leaps of faith in your assumptions of such.

Yes, both pose similar risks to wild animals and that is a concern. The risk issue, though one of many valid concerns, was not the issues that was the genesis of this thread.

If you do not understand why I care that the guys in Missouri call it hunting and the guys in Montana call it meat production, then not much I can do to increase your understanding of why I care. I thought I made it pretty clear with my original post.

The point of this thread was this - Deer farmers want their shooting pens to be considered hunting and have sent their hatchet men out to take swipes at B&C and P&Y for not accepting these shooting pens. Yet, out the other side of their mouth, they are wanting to be called "farms" and be governed by departments of agriculture so as to not have to be subject to reasonable rules the protect wildlife.

Intent was to use the thread to show how blatantly hypocritical it is for one industry to have two faces to their identity, interjecting whichever image is most convenient for the end result they desire.

I will let them have their image of farmers and breeders. And when they try to call themselves hunters, I will use these examples as to why they are not hunters.

Carry on .......

 

[BuzzH]

Wyoming has only 2 game farms in the entire state. Sadly, they were grandfathered in a longgg time ago before the state took a pro-active stance to ban them.

BigFin makes a great point about the hypocrisy of game farmers. They want to be defended by the hunting public when its to their benefit to defend their right to let some d-bag shoot barn yard bob. But, when they get regulations imposed on them via the State Game and Fish Agencies, that they dont agree with, then the fit hits the shan. Then they want to be under the department of ag. The only reason is to lessen the regulation and associated expenses that are required under the G&F agencies.

I believe states should have gotten in front of this issue a long time ago. Game farms are a disaster looking for a place to happen. They're counter-productive to hunting and the health of wild, native animals.

Hunters in every State should work for legislation to flat do away with game farms and get rid of any, and all, potential problems associated with them.

 

[roadhunter]

I'm surprised how hunters like yourself seem to have no problem making assumptions that give the appearance of being uninformed about the position of others they are taking to task.

Not sure where you saw anything where I support these disease factories in either instance, whether Missouri or Montana. If you can find it, post it up.
Actually in your OP you said you had no problem with people shooting pen raised deer, you were more concerned with people calling it hunting than you were with the actual shooting of the animals.

You also defended the decision your state made and you have never made any comments that I have seen about how these operations should be outlawed in your own state even though they pose the exact same threats to wild animals in these areas.

Where did I say I have no problem with these disease factories being in Montana? Just because it is allowed under Montana law, doesn't mean I like the idea. If you read much of what I have written about the topic on this site, you might be a little more informed about the positions I have and might not make such leaps of faith in your assumptions of such.
Please point out the threads where you discuss the problem with meat production game farms in Montana and I will be happy to inform myself. I looked but could not find any.
.

Yes, both pose similar risks to wild animals and that is a concern. The risk issue, though one of many valid concerns, was not the issues that was the genesis of this thread.



If you do not understand why I care that the guys in Missouri call it hunting and the guys in Montana call it meat production, then not much I can do to increase your understanding of why I care. I thought I made it pretty clear with my original post.
You said you didn't care if people shot pen raised deer in your OP. You problem seems to be whether they call it hunting or not which seems like a meaningless detail in the grad scheme of things to me. You seem to be more concerned with what other people call it (hunting/shooting/etc) than the actual effects of the activity on the wild animals.
I am not caught up in the naming of the activities at these game farms. You can call it hunting or shooting or meat production or something else but in the end it's still about exposing wild animals to game farm animals IMO.

The point of this thread was this - Deer farmers want their shooting pens to be considered hunting and have sent their hatchet men out to take swipes at B&C and P&Y for not accepting these shooting pens. Yet, out the other side of their mouth, they are wanting to be called "farms" and be governed by departments of agriculture so as to not have to be subject to reasonable rules the protect wildlife.
I agree 100% but I thought you were concerned with calling it "hunting" and not concerned with the actual shooting of a penned animal. That is why I asked about the game farms in Montana. I was curious if they had the requirements such as double fences to protect wild animals. Do they?

Pheasant farmers do the same thing. Some even operate with state issued licenses for hunters and within the season structure set by the state even though the birds are pen raided and released. They play both sides of the fence as well being a game farms and then requiring hunting licenses as if the birds were wild. Would be similar to game farms using state issued tags to harvest pen raised deer.

Intent was to use the thread to show how blatantly hypocritical it is for one industry to have two faces to their identity, interjecting whichever image is most convenient for the end result they desire.
I think you made your point.

I will let them have their image of farmers and breeders. And when they try to call themselves hunters, I will use these examples as to why they are not hunters.

Do you consider shooting animals who are not afraid of humans "hunting" and "sporting"?

Carry on .......

Carry on.

 

[roadhunter]

Wyoming has only 2 game farms in the entire state. Sadly, they were grandfathered in a longgg time ago before the state took a pro-active stance to ban them.

BigFin makes a great point about the hypocrisy of game farmers. They want to be defended by the hunting public when its to their benefit to defend their right to let some d-bag shoot barn yard bob. But, when they get regulations imposed on them via the State Game and Fish Agencies, that they dont agree with, then the fit hits the shan. Then they want to be under the department of ag. The only reason is to lessen the regulation and associated expenses that are required under the G&F agencies.

I believe states should have gotten in front of this issue a long time ago. Game farms are a disaster looking for a place to happen. They're counter-productive to hunting and the health of wild, native animals.

Hunters in every State should work for legislation to flat do away with game farms and get rid of any, and all, potential problems associated with them.

2 in the whole state? You sure about that? That one article said there were 2 state ran pheasant game farms not to mention all the private game bird farms that I know operate in the state. Also there are a bunch of high fence buffalo breeding operations in the state where you can go shoot a buffalo with an ear tag anytime you want.

 

[BuzzH]

JFC...you'd argue the sky isnt blue.

There are only 2 grandfathered game farms (trying to stay on topic of deer/elk farms).

If you want to count bird farms and bison, then there are a few more.

Just to clarify, so you dont continue with your usual brand of know-it-all bullchit...there arent any pronghorn/sheep/mountain lion/lynx/wolverine/bobcat/coyote/swift fox/ red fox/marten/fisher/otter/beaver/muskrat/bald eagle/mountain goat/house sparrow/humming bird/wolf game farms in Wyoming.

Happy now?

BTW, when was the last time you came up with an original thought or an opinion on any subject on this board.

You're nothing but an argumentative a-hole and a troll...

 

[roadhunter]

JFC...you'd argue the sky isnt blue.

There are only 2 grandfathered game farms (trying to stay on topic of deer/elk farms).

If you want to count bird farms and bison, then there are a few more.

Just to clarify, so you dont continue with your usual brand of know-it-all bullchit...there arent any pronghorn/sheep/mountain lion/lynx/wolverine/bobcat/coyote/swift fox/ red fox/marten/fisher/otter/beaver/muskrat/bald eagle/mountain goat/house sparrow/humming bird/wolf game farms in Wyoming.

Happy now?

BTW, when was the last time you came up with an original thought or an opinion on any subject on this board.

You're nothing but an argumentative a-hole and a troll...

No, we are talking about game farms and you are acting like only 2 exist in the whole state which is simply not true.

The guys from Montana seem to think they don't have any.

In reality there are deer/elk/buffalo/pheasant/etc game farms in Montana and Wyoming but for some reason people like to pretend that there is not while they bash states like Missouri who also have game farms . Clean up your own state first before you start telling other states how to run things. Really with what goes on in Montana politically I'm not sure any state needs to follow that lead.

You sure get defensive when asked about comments you make. Actually kinda funny.

Reminds me of our last discussion when you put your foot in your mouth about all the "archery technology" that Montana has not got in front of and how it has hurt the elk hunting in Montana then didn't' have the balls to tell us exactly what technology you were talking about.

I do count pheasant farms as game farms. Pen raised birds released to hunt/shoot or whatever you want to call it is a game farm. Not sure how you can say they are not.

Not sure how you dont' think high fence buffalo farms are not game farms but they are not much different than deer/elk farms. High fence, hunters, $, and an animal to shoot. That is all it takes to be a high fence game farm.

You are a name calling prick who likes to tell everybody how dumb they are but in the end you can't even back up your statements. Here is a couple I'd like to see you answer.

How do you justify not calling a high fence buffalo farming/hunting operation in Wyoming a game farm?

Archery technology that MT didnt get in front of a long time ago (a combination of items...now for the 13th time) is what has caused the decreased opportunities. No question.

.

What items are you talking about that Montana did not get in front of that are causing the decreased opportunities?

 

[Big Fin]

The guys from Montana seem to think they don't have any.

In reality there are deer/elk/buffalo/pheasant/etc game farms in Montana and Wyoming but for some reason people like to pretend that there is not while they bash states like Missouri who also have game farms . Clean up your own state first before you start telling other states how to run things. Really with what goes on in Montana politically I'm not sure any state needs to follow that lead.

.......

I do count pheasant farms as game farms. Pen raised birds released to hunt/shoot or whatever you want to call it is a game farm. Not sure how you can say they are not.

You sure know a lot about what the guys of Montana supposedly know. Never saw a single post where guys from Montana said we don't have game farms.

Obviously, Pointer was correct in his comments about your reading comprehension. This thread was about the hypocrisy of the deer breeding industry wanting to be considered hunting when it was to their benefit and at other times be considered game farms when to their benefit. It had nothing to do with pheasant preserves.

No one from Montana is telling Missouri what to do. Again, your lack of understanding of the purpose of this thread makes me lean toward believing the comments of your reading comprehension. I don't care what Missouri does. I don't care what MI, MS, MN or any state does.

What I found ironic is the the blowhards in the pen shooting industry calling out B&C and P&Y over the last few months because those groups have made statements that they will not recognize shooting pens as hunting, yet in the next breath, these same deer breeders go pandering to their politicians asking for protection under agriculture and animal husbandry rules when such rules are to their benefit.

That's a bunch of hypocrisy and very common for that industry and their paid mouthpieces. This instance painted the contrast as clear as I have seen it in some time, so that is why it got posted.

Feel free to start a thread about pheasant preserves, buffalo shoots, or anything else. None of this was started based on the supposed "ethics" of any manner of hunting, rather started based on the two-faced flip-flopping of an industry that is too spineless to protect the public from the substantial risk it imposes.

They want the welfare benefits of privatizing the profits and socializing the costs/risks they impose on public resources. And to accomplish that, they are going to the legislature to accomplish it. Then, in their next hypocritical breath, they will talk about property rights and free enterprise, knowing damn well the science points to them being a very high risk for disease to wildlife and genetic pollution of natural stocks.

And none of this is endemic to Missouri. It is a pattern repeated in every state where the captive breeding of ungulates occurs.

 

[1_pointer]

roadie- Might want to brush up on some reading comprehension...

I may need to rethink this post. I'm not sure a brushing up is gonna cut it...