Life and Death

[Elky Welky]

I attended a wedding in Lewistown this past weekend, and on my way to the venue Saturday I spotted a fox running along a fence line. My 4 year-old niece was in the car, and she was so excited to see the fox. She thought foxes were mythical creatures like unicorns. Needless to say, her excitement made my day.

Later that eve, I was driving alone away from the venue and there was a dead fox in the road, close to where we had seen the fox earlier. I pulled over and threw the carcass in the ditch out of sight so my niece wouldn't see it (her parents and her were staying a little longer at the wedding). I was heartbroken.

As hunters, we are steeped in death. I commercial salmon fished for 7 summers, so there's even more blood on my hands than most people I know. So I was surprised by my reaction to the dead fox following the wedding, and I continue to ponder my role in all of this. I don't really feel sad when I take a life when I'm hunting, and in fact I tend to be annoyed by the performative sadness I see some hunters act out on social media. Once an animal is down I tend to be pragmatic; I'm grateful for the meat and respect the harvest, but it's all part of the cycle and there's work to do.

Which leads to the question: where's the line? Why would my heart break if I were to lose my pets, but I don't feel for the elk I arrow? Why was I so bothered by the death of a fox on the road? Why did I not care about the untold slaughter I participated in in AK all those years?

I don't expect answers here, but would be interested in others' thoughts and experiences.

 

[406dn]

I wrestle with similar emotions about the deaths of various animals.

Recently I told my wife that killing an elk does not upset me, but culling the infestation of rabbits around our home does. I think it is a couple of reasons. One, they get tossed into the garbage dumpster. Also, the pellet rifle I use, does not always kill them as humanely as I'd prefer. I can't use a .22 rifle, with nearby neighbors, even with the air gun, I try to be discreet.

I think the most powerful component of hunting is that it puts death right in your face.

 

[MNElkNut]

“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”

It is a good person that contemplates the death of animals. I fear we are losing more and more to the thought that "....breakfast comes from the grocery...".

Every year as hunting season comes to an end, I flip a mental switch from the harvest to aiding in surviving the a winter. Actually, helping the animal survive is a year-long endeavor.

Ever have someone over for dinner and they leave some wild game on their plate when they are done? It rankles me. The animal gave its life for that person to throw it away, to say nothing of my efforts in harvesting it. Leave the rice, eat the steak.

 

[TOGIE]

I first noticed this dichotomy with rabbits as well.

I will get a nasty bloodlust for rabbits when i'm out and about with a .22 and feel no remorse when i pop a couple. But, when i see them in my yard it would break my heart to find them dead and i'll scold my dog when she chases them; "let them be" i say to her. This to me, to a degree, negates the possibility that it's all about things that are/can be cuddly pets or not, like rabbits.

I even feel a tinge of sadness seeing a freshly dead racoon in the road. And yet, i've never felt even a smidgeon of heartache at the death of any animal i've hunted (except for some poor shots/not quick deaths).

And it can't be just because the racoon didn't have to die that it creates sadness, because the elk and rabbits i've killed don't have to die either.

i like to think part of it is that it's just steeped in our biology. Perhaps it's the very concept deep in our brains that the intact natural world is what keeps us alive and that it is beautiful, treasured, and to be defended. Yet, simultaneously, the death of animals at our hands is also what keeps us alive.

also, "later that eve" ??

 

[Dubz337]

The line is personal attachment, either firsthand or anecdotal. Have it, you feel bad about animal death. Don't have it, you can rationalize/compartmentalize animal death.

 

[rjthehunter]

I think harvesting an animal is different than killing an animal.

For instance, when hunting, we're doing it for a reason. We gain the meat.
When I watch a car hit a deer in front of me and the deer is crippled, I don't want to watch it suffer. It didn't need to happen. It's usually not going to benefit anyone. Unfortunately, most deer hit by cars just end up as coyote food.

 

[Nameless Range]

It's an uncomfortable fact, but so much of grief is familiarity, the story we tell ourselves, sphere of experience, even convenience.


You and I know a child's life is precious as any in the universe. 10,000 children die every day from hunger, yet you nor I shed a tear. We can understand it's tragic, but don't even scratch the surface when it comes to "feeling" for those lives. The fox was familiar, it had a story in your mind, it was involved in your sphere of experience, and you can imagine how someone you love - your niece - would've experienced it's death.

There's more to it I suppose, as we do rank-order the cognitive abilities of animals to suffer as well as their lives generally. Some are associated with your continued existence (food), while other remind us of other stories. I don't feel too bad when I kill something, though I do when I have done it poorly. It's certainly complicated. When it comes to pets and in particular dogs, I think there's a magic in their lifelong innocence.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Good on you for maintaining the innocence of the world for your niece.

Age helps with this a lot - at 12-16 i found a lot of things fun thatd id scold myself for now in regards to shooting animals.

I have been sad or felt brief moments of pain after harvesting - even if they were brief and overshadowed by joy/excitement.

For some reason - foxes and rabbits are something i wont shoot - but prarie dogs or a coyote and the feeling of hesitation wouldn't be there as much. Hard to justify that i admit.

Certainly a necessary part of things that far too many people forget though - animal protein came from a living animal that died to be eaten.

 

[TOGIE]

It's an uncomfortable fact, but so much of grief is familiarity, the story we tell ourselves, sphere of experience, even convenience.


You and I know a child's life is precious as any in the universe. 10,000 children die every day from hunger, yet you nor I shed a tear. We can understand it's tragic, but don't even scratch the surface when it comes to "feeling" for those lives. The fox was familiar, it had a story in your mind, it was involved in your sphere of experience, and you can imagine how someone you love - your niece - would've experienced it's death.

There's more to it I suppose, as we do rank-order the cognitive abilities of animals to suffer as well as their lives generally. Some are associated with your continued existence (food), while other remind us of other stories. I don't feel too bad when I kill something, though I do when I have done it poorly. It's certainly complicated. When it comes to pets and in particular dogs, I think there's a magic in their lifelong innocence.

I think you hit one of the primary nails. Though I do think there are several other nails in this sphere of hunting, animals, and death.

and the psychologists have certainly recognized and studied the phenomenon like what you are talking about.

Compassion Fade: Affect and Charity Are Greatest for a Single Child in Need - PMC

Charitable giving in 2013 exceeded $300 billion, but why do we respond to some life-saving causes while ignoring others? In our first two studies, we demonstrated that valuation of lives is associated with affective feelings (self-reported and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[morley.tyler]

For me, it's an emotional investment.
You are emotionally invested in your niece's happiness, thus you don't want her hurt. You have a soul.
You are emotionally invested in your pet(s), you care for them, feed them, live with them, provide for them, and you accept their love. If their death and/or suffering didn't affect you, you might be a monster.
Why can we kill animals and have little to no remorse? Pragmatism, sure. Transactional, maybe. I'd argue that they have no name(s), and we haven't spent time caring for and being cared for by them.
We raised pigs and beef cattle in my youth. Of course, the 1st time we got young cows, I wanted to name them. My dad had to explain to me (@ 7yo) that these are not pets, but future dinners. We do not name stock, we name pets.

 

[elkduds]

Great topic, @Elky Welky. Killing is serious business. The hunting ethic I was raised with is don't kill it if you aren't going to eat it, and if you do, kill as mercifully as possible. I eventually stopped archery hunting because of this ethic. In recent years I've found much enjoyment in watching and photographing deer and elk, and lost the desire to kill any more of them. I happily go with others and do what I can to contribute to their success, don't feel remorse in their harvest. Lately I don't even care to shoot pheasants, which I found was more exciting than big game hunting. For a few years before I stopped hunting I found myself feeling okay when I blew a stalk or let a cow elk walk because of her calf. Eventually realized I have killed enough. That is my own decision, not here to convince anyone how they should feel or act. Animals live in a world of life and death, so dying quickly to feed hunters is a better ending than most. I just am not that guy any more, though for a long time it was a strong passion for me. I have no doubt animals feel bonds of attachment, fear, pain, pleasure and relief. I never saw an animal that looked better dead, than alive and unscathed. I have killed animals to end what I saw as their suffering and probably would do that again.

 

[Rie Bread]

I feel unfortunate to have unattached feeling towards animals, but it could have been my up bring and putting bear dogs down after they get mauled, lame calf’s and thousands of vermin.

Edit: not that I don’t find animals beautiful or enjoy watching them do their animal stuff. I enjoy a view into a little sliver of their life

 

[ismith]

Which leads to the question: where's the line? Why would my heart break if I were to lose my pets, but I don't feel for the elk I arrow? Why was I so bothered by the death of a fox on the road? Why did I not care about the untold slaughter I participated in in AK all those years?

I don't expect answers here, but would be interested in others' thoughts and experiences.

The line is more than likely where the intellect takes over from the emotions, and, vice versa.

 

[noharleyyet]

Each event is impacted by what my head is cluttered with at the moment. But not pigs, that's definitely joy.

The line is more than likely where the intellect takes over from the emotions, and, vice versa.

..well said.

 

[Addicting]

I don’t like killing for killing sake. If there is reason or purpose I understand it.

 

[AntelopeWalker406]

I think seeing a beautiful creature like a fox smashed up on the road and knowing your niece would be affected by it probably got you a bit. Same with pets. You build a relationship with them. Individual elk, deer, bears, birds, etc aren't really a big deal because you know how many are left out there and the relationship with those animals are very much predator and prey. Your cat and dog run to you. I still can't figure out how to do that with a deer or elk without a call. I imagine if you killed what would be the last of a species (except maybe ticks) you'd probably be really, really sad.

 

[FairWeather]

I think it’s kind of up there with what is fair chase. It will change from person to person, but there is an invisible line and you know when someone crosses it.

I do feel something between sadness and guilt after killing an animal. Theres plenty of meat in the grocery store, I certainly don’t need to kill these things. But, I see it as more fully partaking in human existence. We are meant to be predators. That doesnt mean we’re meant to be wanton killers.

 

[mevertsen]

I attended a wedding in Lewistown this past weekend, and on my way to the venue Saturday I spotted a fox running along a fence line. My 4 year-old niece was in the car, and she was so excited to see the fox. She thought foxes were mythical creatures like unicorns. Needless to say, her excitement made my day.

Later that eve, I was driving alone away from the venue and there was a dead fox in the road, close to where we had seen the fox earlier. I pulled over and threw the carcass in the ditch out of sight so my niece wouldn't see it (her parents and her were staying a little longer at the wedding). I was heartbroken.

As hunters, we are steeped in death. I commercial salmon fished for 7 summers, so there's even more blood on my hands than most people I know. So I was surprised by my reaction to the dead fox following the wedding, and I continue to ponder my role in all of this. I don't really feel sad when I take a life when I'm hunting, and in fact I tend to be annoyed by the performative sadness I see some hunters act out on social media. Once an animal is down I tend to be pragmatic; I'm grateful for the meat and respect the harvest, but it's all part of the cycle and there's work to do.

Which leads to the question: where's the line? Why would my heart break if I were to lose my pets, but I don't feel for the elk I arrow? Why was I so bothered by the death of a fox on the road? Why did I not care about the untold slaughter I participated in in AK all those years?

I don't expect answers here, but would be interested in others' thoughts and experiences.

I felt bad for killing a fish the other day. Don't know why. Didn't feel bad for 2 others earlier in the day. I ate the one I felt sad about. The other two are in the freezer.

I raise and kill pigs. Hate the part of killing them. Tear up a bit then get to work. I always feel sadness for the killing part.

Agreed on the Performative sadness though.

I think it's just the cycle of life and realization we are all part of it.

I also think we must do animals justice that we kill by making sure we take care to limit waste of the lives we've taken.

 

[elkhuntinfool78]

First off I gotta say this is a good thread and interesting to hear different perspectives on the topic.

I've always felt a little sadness and remorse when taking an animals life but yet every year my desire to be out hunting is as strong as ever.

As I've gotten a bit older I will say that just being out in the woods and seeing game is all the enjoyment I need, but at the same time I go as hard-core as I can every year to get a chance at the right animal.

I think to some extent a lot of hunters as they get older become more selective and become somewhat of a trophy hunter so to speak. Taking an older mature animal is not as heart wrenching as shooting the first young critter that walks out. Knowing that animal has lived a fuller life and that you've outsmarted a mature animal makes the situation easier for me and several I know for some reason.

I'm also a firm believer that an animal should never go to waste and I won't harvest any animal I don't intend to eat. This is one reason I have a problem with some of the "celebrity hunters" that go from one hunt to another to another and they just have to fill their tags to make for a better TV show and so they look great for all their social media followers

I suppose I've rambled off enough...lol

 

[Nick87]

I don't know how to describe it but I think a lot has to do with if your raised around death or not. For example having livestock as a kid or even having to shoot a sick calf or cow or whatever it may be at a young age. Hell, watched my dad put down our dogs as a kid. Nothing about it was cold or inhumane (quite the opposite really) but you were brought up to know that's just part of life so death has never bothered me with livestock, or hunting etc or even pets for that matter. Suffering on the other hand does. Seen some hunters who dont tske much empathy in dispatching something humanely that is suffering. Wont tolerate much of that, no reason for it. I can tell you this having little ones doesn't change how I feel about it but it sure makes you put a lot more thought into the matter.

Good thread @Elky Welky