Licensed Guide requirement for hunting

[406Born]

So the new NR outfitter bill in Montana that rightfully has everyone fired up got me thinking. I almost posted this question there but didn’t want to derail the thread. Why does a state force non residents to hire a guide to hunt certain species? I have only hunted Montana and Alaska so I don’t know about other states and if they require guides.

In Alaska as a non-resident you can not hunt brown bear, sheep, or goats without a guide. Is there a reason for this other than money? I assume some might argue safety due to the size of Alaska and rugged terrain some of these animals live in. I understand that diy might be difficult but it would be doable and a lot of people know someone in alaska who they would like to hunt with but are unable to without a guide.

Just curious, maybe there are other reasons I am unaware of? My thought is if you are able to obtain a tag you shouldn’t be required to use a guide.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Each state can legally set the rules for access to the wildlife it holds in trust for its residents. They can make the rules whether logical or not.

Any rule requiring a licensed guide for certain reasons is for the financial benefit of outfitters regardless of what justification is given to ensure passage of those restrictions.

 

[Salmonchaser]

Oh Boy

 

[Deleted member 28227]

No there is no reason, but it's the state's prerogative as @Gerald Martin said.

Don't forget the WY guide rule.

Also, AK has hunts you can ONLY apply for if your going unguided .

 

[MTGunner]

This is nothing more than a power grab by the Montana guides. This, in itself, will derail funding via nonresident applications. BTW, I am a long time Montana resident. But, who the hell needs a guide to hunt elk, deer, antelope, sheep, moose etc, etc, etc? If a nonresident chooses to hire a guide, that is fine. But, to mandate hiring a guide is nothing more than a money grubbing agenda by outfitters. My .02 cents. MTG

 

[dan.kirkpatrick]

mandating a guide is total bs//power grab for outfitters that is not needed//if you want a guide,hire one ,,if its public,,d i y it yourself,,montana already charges too much for there non res tags anyway that the average guy cant afford to hunt montana anyway.

 

[Bambistew]

I've gone round and round on this in my head.

The guide requirement brings in a lot of extra revenue to the state. We need all the money we can get. I don't see any reason to give away charity because someone wants a cheap vacation.

 

[ChaosOneZero]

I've gone round and round on this in my head.

The guide requirement brings in a lot of extra revenue to the state. We need all the money we can get. I don't see any reason to give away charity because someone wants a cheap vacation.

I don’t know that I’ve ever seen or heard anyone talk about anything related to Alaska - hunting, fishing, or otherwise - being cheap.

 

[SaskHunter]

Wyoming be like:

 

[Bambistew]

I don’t know that I’ve ever seen or heard anyone talk about anything related to Alaska - hunting, fishing, or otherwise - being cheap.

Well a NR could do a DIY sheep for $2500 or less vs $18,000 on guided. I'd call that pretty cheap. You're right nothing is cheap, but a guy going up to hunt caribou off the haul road spends very little in our economy. We could argue it till the cows come home, but IMO I really think NR could spend more, and I'm to the point that I just don't care to defend cheap hunting anymore. Its a vacation...

 

[sschultz]

Well a NR could do a DIY sheep for $2500 or less vs $18,000 on guided. I'd call that pretty cheap. You're right nothing is cheap, but a guy going up to hunt caribou off the haul road spends very little in our economy. We could argue it till the cows come home, but IMO I really think NR could spend more, and I'm to the point that I just don't care to defend cheap hunting anymore. Its a vacation...

So your saying only rich people should be able to hunt

 

[MTGunner]

To mandate that nonresidents must hire a guide will rule out many that cannot afford a hunt in MT. Again, this is nothing but a power grab!

 

[Rzrbk]

I personally can't imagine ever using a guide. Not that I claim to be a great hunter, it's just for me it would take away from the hunt. Thus I wouldn't consider Montana for elk with a guide requirement. I appreciate and welcome advice and tips but having a guide lead me around would take away the most gratifying aspects of a hunt.

 

[shrapnel]

This is nothing more than a power grab by the Montana guides. This, in itself, will derail funding via nonresident applications. BTW, I am a long time Montana resident. But, who the hell needs a guide to hunt elk, deer, antelope, sheep, moose etc, etc, etc? If a nonresident chooses to hire a guide, that is fine. But, to mandate hiring a guide is nothing more than a money grubbing agenda by outfitters. My .02 cents. MTG

Of course this is a financially motivated proposal by the outfitters in Montana. You aren’t going to find resident or non resident hunters suggesting this concept. Outfitting is a business for profit the same as many other Montana industries.

They are united in an effort to enhance their business the same as any other endeavor in enterprise. If they can get the endorsement from the legislature, they accomplish their agenda.

Is it wrong or illegal?

Is it popular?

These questions will bring a polarizing effect to the hunting community, much the same as landowner or public ground conflicts. How this is settled will upset one side or the other, as both can’t win.

Montana remains the best state for hunting/fishing/outdoor activities in the lower 48. It is a target for every conceivable group you can imagine, yet there are some people that think there is a magic recipe for utopia, providing all the best opportunities for every concern and it just isn’t true, nor is it possible.

Someone always loses and someone will always be upset. I for one live here and I can hunt and fish around all the varied philosophies and still have better success than any other state. How I would want it would only please me, so I just keep buying my licenses every year, read the regulations and go hunting.

 

[dan.kirkpatrick]

i struggle with just the cost of applying in several of the states,,a guided hunt is absolutly out,,montana has been one of the higher priced states in my opinion for several years now,,but idaho and utah are really starting to catch up to them now..hard to tell at this point what is the best bang for the buck vs quality vs quantity,,requiring a guide gets absolutly no revinue from me..montana could have had thousands out of my pocket in past years,,but im too cheap,,so they have not gotten 1 cent,,,wyoming has done pretty well as well as a few other states for non res moneys,,food,fuel ,ect,even on a budget adds up quick.

 

[F250]

When my wife and I were rather new to elk hunting, we went with a guide, Carlton, on a cow hunt. He was in his late 50's and a one man show. We hunted a mix of public and private. The local Warden had given Carlton a when I called to check on him. When we arrived, Carlton asked what we expected that week. I told him I wanted him to teach us Elk Hunting 101, ID the local plant life relative to elk hunting, and tell us about the local history and people ( he was married to a Navajo woman). He said in 30 years of guiding, that our requests were the first of it's kind. The usual requests were for for big antlers and such. We had a really great week. We learned a bunch !! We also killed two elk. It was a relaxed time, lots of laughs, and elk hunting college.

 

[undercover]

This one kinda stings. My first western hunt will be in wyoming 2021. BUT 2022 was the year my wife was going to join me in Montana for deer. she is currently taking Hunter Ed at the age of 50. A new hunter, a spouse who wants to accompany me, neither of us have ever been there. Two non resident tags will be costly enough but doable, hiring a guide? No way. Seems like I already have been cat organized as a an out of stater who leaves trash and won’t help the local Montana economy. And yet, people can profit off public lands? Maybe I’ll buy a food truck and sell chili dogs on some BLM near broadus. Seems fair to me. Sorry, I was excited for the onset of my adult life, spending it with my life long mate in the Good Lords creation. Just rubbed the wrong way I guess. Gonna have to send an email two as a non resident.

 

[AlaskaHunter]

Also the guiding requirement effectively reduces the number of hunters hunting brown/grizzly bears, sheep, goats.
For example, about 2400 hunter report hunting Dall sheep each year and the harvest is about 800 sheep each year.
Non-residents harvest about 40-50 percent of the sheep each year.
With no guiding requirement for non-residents, the cost would be $1000-$3000 DYI compared to $18,000-$20,000 guided.
A non-resident sheep tag cost is free for non-resident military, $800 for non-resident non-military.

 

[ChaosOneZero]

So your saying only rich people should be able to hunt

This.

Well a NR could do a DIY sheep for $2500 or less vs $18,000 on guided. I'd call that pretty cheap. You're right nothing is cheap, but a guy going up to hunt caribou off the haul road spends very little in our economy. We could argue it till the cows come home, but IMO I really think NR could spend more, and I'm to the point that I just don't care to defend cheap hunting anymore. Its a vacation...

And the amount of work required to be successful, imo, more than makes up for the difference in cost. I have no qualms with people hiring outfitters, but when the cost of a 7-day hunt is more than a year’s tuition at any public school in the United States, the overwhelming majority of hunters can’t afford it. So you’d rather they be shut out of hunting those states and species altogether? This is America, hard work has always been the great equalizer when it comes to prosperity and success in the face of inherent equality.

And regarding the need for more monies coming to Alaska, I find the comment interesting given Alaska is in the government welfare business.

 

[peterk1234]

When my wife and I were rather new to elk hunting, we went with a guide, Carlton, on a cow hunt. He was in his late 50's and a one man show. We hunted a mix of public and private. The local Warden had given Carlton a when I called to check on him. When we arrived, Carlton asked what we expected that week. I told him I wanted him to teach us Elk Hunting 101, ID the local plant life relative to elk hunting, and tell us about the local history and people ( he was married to a Navajo woman). He said in 30 years of guiding, that our requests were the first of it's kind. The usual requests were for for big antlers and such. We had a really great week. We learned a bunch !! We also killed two elk. It was a relaxed time, lots of laughs, and elk hunting college.

Thank you for sharing. Great story. That right there is what hunting is all about.