Lead Shot Ban

[BenInMT]

A lot of the old timers don’t want to admit to their failing eyesight and incompetence. Steel shot is their scapegoat.

 

[Brandon270]

So what was the scientific study done by the EPA to show that the lead from the range caused a direct impact in the slough?

No scientific study done that I know of, just some measurements taken from the firing line to the slough.

The options were: no skeet shooting, use non toxic shot, or put up some kind of special net to "catch" the shot. The managers of the range actually considered the net until they got a pricey quote for it.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Is it acceptable to use lead for target practice? For shooting "gophers" or prairie dogs? In .22 LR for fun? I bet more raptors get lead from that kind of recreational shooting than from big game killed. And not just condors and eagles that these studies focus on. mtmuley

I would imagine that if someone were to study the impact to raptors in PD & gopher fields, we'd all be shooting unleaded sooner rather than later.

Barnes makes an inexpensive frangible in .224 that I'm going to have to try out. I've got 100 of them sitting in the reloading room. I think it was $25 for the box.

 

[MTLabrador]

Kent Bismuth is $47.99 a box compared to $16.99 for a box of Kent Fast Lead. A $30 difference sucks, but if that difference forces you to quit hunting, you didn’t want to hunt that badly... A night out at dinner costs more than a box of expensive ammo.

 

[Otto Matic]

It all goes back to "which study do you believe".
There are numerous studies (peer reviewed if that pleases you) showing "metallic lead" (lead in ammunition) is of little consequence. "Soluble lead" (gasoline, paint, chemicals, etc) is easily absorbed into the blood stream and can be extremely toxic.
The "lead ban" people deny any other explanation but the "lead in ammunition is toxic and MUST be banned" and refuse any other plausible study or explanation.

Well, they've gotten their way.
Now the rest of America must bow to their inane desires.

 

[shoots-straight]

Absolutely! Solid lead is of no issue, though the myth of it is. The issue is DISSOLVED lead in water/food sources. This is a much more difficult issue to deal with. The shot issue is something tangible that has the added benefit of reducing hunting numbers. Win/win for the anti-crowd.

That's not true at all. My Uncle ran a exotic bird farm and raised all kinds of waterfowl. He also had a bad habit of shooting Muskrats with the .22 when they swam by. Many a bird, died from digesting those .22 bullets from the bottom of the ponds there. Every bird that died was give an autopsy, and most of the time they died from lead. It wasn't lead built up over time, it was within a short period of digestion.

 

[Otto Matic]

Kent Bismuth is $47.99 a box compared to $16.99 for a box of Kent Fast Lead. A $30 difference sucks, but if that difference forces you to quit hunting, you didn’t want to hunt that badly... A night out at dinner costs more than a box of expensive ammo.

Geez! I wish I was in a position that fifty bucks a box ammo was, "Meh."!
Guess being Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates has it's pluses.

I have to say again, being able to "purchase" the ammo is different than being able to "afford" the ammo.

....and congratulations to you for having the wherewithal to make such purchases without a second thought.

p.s. - my "dinner out" is to drive through Chick-fil-a. About $15, depending on what I order. That's normally the first of the month. Everything else we eat is prepared at home.

BTW! My kids both have very nice jobs and do very well. The wife and me are constantly fussing at them for spending money the way they do. It scares me.
But then, I'm an old tightwad too! LOL!

 

[Otto Matic]

That's not true at all. My Uncle ran a exotic bird farm and raised all kinds of waterfowl. He also had a bad habit of shooting Muskrats with the .22 when they swam by. Many a bird, died from digesting those .22 bullets from the bottom of the ponds there. Every bird that died was give an autopsy, and most of the time they died from lead. It wasn't lead built up over time, it was within a short period of digestion.

I call horse feathers! ...with all due respect to your uncle.
Birds cannot digest metallic lead and swallowed bits of lead generally pass through their systems within 8 to 10 hours.
The digestive acids aren't strong enough to digest metallic lead.

 

[MTLabrador]

Geez! I wish I was in a position that fifty bucks a box ammo was, "Meh."!
Guess being Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates has it's pluses.

I have to say again, being able to "purchase" the ammo is different than being able to "afford" the ammo.

....and congratulations to you for having the wherewithal to make such purchases without a second thought.

p.s. - my "dinner out" is to drive through Chick-fil-a. About $15, depending on what I order. That's normally the first of the month. Everything else we eat is prepared at home.

BTW! My kids both have very nice jobs and do very well. The wife and me are constantly fussing at them for spending money the way they do. It scares me.
But then, I'm an old tightwad too! LOL!

Ha, I’m far from rich. Everyone has priorities in life, and I love to hunt. So yes, I’ll happily spend some money on ammo, nice gear, good boots, etc and save money by not buying other expensive things that people buy all the time. I’m sure you spend money on things that I wouldn’t.

If a casual hunter can’t afford ammunition, they probably can’t afford the gas to go hunting either.

 

[Otto Matic]

"... If a casual hunter can’t afford ammunition, they probably can’t afford the gas to go hunting either. ..."

I wouldn't consider myself a "casual" hunter. I'm not giving up hunting until I'm no longer mobil in the field.
But I do have to pay attention to what I spend where and on what. Fuel included. I'm also constantly on the lookout for deals.
...and I reload.
I'm not cheap. I'm a tightwad.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

No scientific study done that I know of, just some measurements taken from the firing line to the slough.

The options were: no skeet shooting, use non toxic shot, or put up some kind of special net to "catch" the shot. The managers of the range actually considered the net until they got a pricey quote for it.

Ah, so it sounds like shot was or could potentially have fallen into the slough. Yeah, damn, put your club in a bind. Would have been an incredibly priced custom net.

 

[Gatekeeper]

I call horse feathers! ...with all due respect to your uncle.
Birds cannot digest metallic lead and swallowed bits of lead generally pass through their systems within 8 to 10 hours.
The digestive acids aren't strong enough to digest metallic lead.

Don't you think lead would stay in their gizzard like gravel ?

 

[Otto Matic]

Don't you think lead would stay in their gizzard like gravel ?

The gizzard is basically a pouch. Ducks, geese, raptors, chickens, etc can either pass gravel through just like you or they can regurgitate whatever is in their crop.
So, 8 to 10 hours is the max.
"Can" a lead pellet stay in the crop longer?
Possibly.
But we go back to the fact that metallic lead isn't affected by the digestive acids in a birds crop or digestive system.

I don't have the link, but they ran a study in Georgia in which they checked the crop of harvested ducks.
They found no lead pellets and no elevated levels in the blood.

 

[Otto Matic]

To argue lead isn’t a poisonous substance is asinine.

I don't think I ever "argued" that lead isn't a poisonous substance.
What I'm saying is metallic lead has little if any effect on waterfowl, scavengers or birds of prey.

"Soluble lead" in paint, gasoline and other chemicals is some deadly stuff. It can be absorbed through the skin and readily absorbed if ingested. (paint chips?)
"Metallic lead" in ammunition, on the other hand, is pretty benign. Even if ingested.

 

[JLS]

Metallic lead" in ammunition, on the other hand, is pretty benign. Even if ingested.

Show me some science for this. Indoor shooting ranges can have dire consequences.

 

[SAJ-99]

I don't think I ever "argued" that lead isn't a poisonous substance.
What I'm saying is metallic lead has little if any effect on waterfowl, scavengers or birds of prey.

"Soluble lead" in paint, gasoline and other chemicals is some deadly stuff. It can be absorbed through the skin and readily absorbed if ingested. (paint chips?)
"Metallic lead" in ammunition, on the other hand, is pretty benign. Even if ingested.

Here you go https://www.fws.gov/midwest/refuges/Review and Assessment paper.pdf#page57

Each link you see is a citation to a study listed in the appendix. You can Google them and read at your leisure. It might take a while because there is a lot of data on the effects of lead ingestion in birds. My guess is you won’t because you are not interested in learning anything about the subject.

 

[Bluffgruff]

Before I go to pasting website links, would a discussion on the banning of lead shot and bullets be of interest?
...or maybe something we (you) are tired of discussing? i.e. beating a dead horse

There is a theory stating boomers and others growing up before the lead gas and paint ban are on average 5 IQ points less intelligent than those growing up after the ban. I think trying to make ducks and scavengers stupid is a poor argument for favoring lead projectiles.

I can't read all the other crap in this thread. I was born after the lead paint/gas ban and I'm too smart to care about all the drivel.

 

[shoots-straight]

I call horse feathers! ...with all due respect to your uncle.
Birds cannot digest metallic lead and swallowed bits of lead generally pass through their systems within 8 to 10 hours.
The digestive acids aren't strong enough to digest metallic lead.

I did not say 8 to 10 hours and don't know if the bullets lodged in the intestines or crop. I said a short period of time. Could have been a few days. The death was almost always lead bullets found in the autopsy. Seemingly healthy birds showed up dead and what was found was lead.

 

[jryoung]

"Metallic lead" in ammunition, on the other hand, is pretty benign. Even if ingested.

Are you *^#@ing kidding me?

 

[Hunting Wife]

I don't think I ever "argued" that lead isn't a poisonous substance.
What I'm saying is metallic lead has little if any effect on waterfowl, scavengers or birds of prey.

"Soluble lead" in paint, gasoline and other chemicals is some deadly stuff. It can be absorbed through the skin and readily absorbed if ingested. (paint chips?)
"Metallic lead" in ammunition, on the other hand, is pretty benign. Even if ingested.

Bullshit. I’ve spent lots of years picking up sick and dead birds and seen plenty of lead shot and bullet fragments in GI, both in necropsy and radiograph. You’ve made blatantly clear with your ridiculous posts and links that you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.