I should apologize to Randy for this

[jlong17]

For the record, I would share a campfire with any of you guys. I know for a fact we would disagree on a wide variety of things, but that what makes human relationships special... and in my opinion required for healthy living. Disagreements don't necessarily mean you must argue. I don't think this thread has gone sideways at all. No need to lock it? It's just a bunch of people from all walks of life stating things that they deeply believe in? For people who are firm in their beliefs, sweet. For people who aren't sure what they believe, then great. This is how change is made, and this is how free societies prosper... by open dialogue

 

[Handlebar]

What was the religion of choice in Nazi Germany during the early 40s?

I have no idea, perhaps some twisted version of Lutheranism? Is that a serious argument?

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I know it seems like these threads can be useless at times, but for those who work with youth -- or even as it relates to your neighborhood families, extended family, friends -- it is a good reminder of the need to create meaningful connection points for kids. Some of the discussion has been at least tangentially about how and where to look for ways to do that, which I find helpful.

There is a lot at the state, regional, and national scale that feels pretty intangible, regardless of political affiliaton. I'm sure some people are well equipped to make some headway there but probably not many. There is some work that can legitimately be done on the ground however, and by anyone who is willing to donate some time and show kids that they are worthwhile. For those who wish something could be done but don't feel like you know where to start, I think that's a good place.

Big Brothers Big Sisters, Boys and Girls Clubs, youth sports, 4-H, after school programs through school districts, church groups, hunter ed groups, etc. are almost always in need of volunteers who really care.

 

[QuazyQuinton]

And what is your solution for anyone who is not a Christian and does not follow those same teachings?

As someone who takes my Christian faith very seriously, I'll offer a response. I can go down the road of why I think everyone should be a Christian, but I recognize that everyone gets to choose, and not everyone wants to. We could get this thread locked pretty quick.

What I do see are the same cultural shifts that everyone else is discussing on this thread. The United States is not, and never was a "Christian nation." A nation cannot be Christian; only individual believers can be Christian. However, the historical widespread adherence to Christianity had a substantial effect on American society as a whole. Most of the time this was overwhelmingly positive, but unfortunately it has also been abused at times. Relating to what @okie archer wrote, I see a couple of shifts that I think are valid whether you subscribe to Christianity or not.

First, our culture is shifting away from an absolute standard of morality to everything being up to the individual. Historically, the Bible had a significant effect on the formation of this standard. Be honest. Love your neighbor. Don't cheat on your spouse. Don't kill people. Even people who broke the rules knew what the list of rules was. You could be trusted with a shotgun in your pickup in the school parking lot, because there was a sense that you knew that shooting someone with it would be a horribly evil act. However, as we decided that some parts of an absolute moral code no longer applied (Christian or not), I see it as a natural progression that "Thou shalt not kill" is losing its grip as a universal moral principle today.

Second, as our culture has moved more intentionally away from Christianity in the last few decades, we seem to have equated that with moving away from spiritual input of any kind. In the complexity of what makes us human, I'm convinced that there is a spiritual component to each of us. For some people, Christianity or another religion fills that role. Some people sort of roll their own ego into that role. Some people struggle with life because they don't find anything to fill that space. Again, as we've moved away from Christianity as the major player of this role in our culture, I fear that we've left succeeding generations with a lack of anything to fill that hole. Some maybe have done okay, but I suspect that some on the fringe have been left more vulnerable to the darkness of this kind of violence.

You can agree or disagree as you wish. No one is required to think the same as me. However, this is also why I don't believe any legislation will fix school shootings. There is selfishness and emptiness in people's hearts, and no legislature has a solution for that.

QQ

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz, you have twisted my words as usual. Show me where I said I thought I was better. Where do you get I thought I was better or I was forcing anything. I posted my feelings as everyone else has. I have the same right do I not?
True or false?
If everyone followed the Bible would our world be without the things I listed?
Sincerely, okie

Wrong, I didn't twist anything...I read what you wrote and your scripture you quoted.

Its condemnation of anyone that doesn't think the same way you do...IE: you're better than everyone else.

Just because you fail to see it, doesn't mean that's not the way "your message" reads.

NO, I don't believe the world would be a better place if everyone followed the bible, because a boatload of bible followers don't adhere to any of it.

They abuse drugs, abuse kids, beat their wives, kill...essentially do everything on your list. Apparently it doesn't work all that well.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

If you can't treat them, how can you figure out the root cause (other than internet speculation)? You need to understand what is going on in their heads to know how they formed those mental patterns.

Also, root cause is important to improve the future, but treatment regardless of how folks got to this point is necessary to improve the present.

I am not suggesting this is your motive, but more broadly I am tired of my fellow conservatives and fellow christians just throwing up abstract questions and refusing to fund any actual steps toward remediating the current state and improving the future state. It just comes across as a false inquiry to delay/prevent any actual work on the problem.

Another poster mentioned above, but is worth reiterating, the combined effect of "we shouldn't limit access to guns because it is mental health challenge" and then an hour later "we can't fund any mental health efforts because they are just all fake snowflake victims and have to toughen up". So that we means we do nothing about either. And that does not seem thoughtful or insightful, but rather it comes across as synical, disinterested, heartless and clueless.

I as well have no desire to get into a religious discussion regarding this issue.

Do not and will not advocate against treatment. Would even support more funding for treatment of Mental Health issues, if I thought it would result in a determination of what is causing our teens MH issues. However, far too much of US healthcare is aligned around treatment and not near enough on cures. Far too often treatment = prescription medication. I doubt additional funding for MH treatment would result in a different outcome and I further doubt that what US teems really lack is enough prescription meds.

I have not got the foggiest idea why 17% of US teens require MH treatment. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone else does either.

 

[Addicting]

But man wants to buck up at the idea of submitting to the rules of God.

The Bible is chocked full of death in the name of God. According to the good book it’s not a sin when we as humans decide that slewing a heathen is in accordance with God’s will.

How many did Samson murder with the Jaw bone?

 

[TOGIE]

uh oh.

the elementary IQ level theological debate is about to begin.

i'm out.

 

[Rainer]

God, Satan, Easter Bunny.... Santa Claus..... Tooth Fairy.... who else is going to get name dropped?

Send in the rodeo clown TT to end this topic

Try any good cheese lately?

 

[QuazyQuinton]

because a boatload of bible followers don't adhere to any of it.

Do people who twist the US Constitution to suit their agendas invalidate the Constitution?

QQ

 

[Handlebar]

NO, I don't believe the world would be a better place if everyone followed the bible, because a boatload of bible followers don't adhere to any of it.

They abuse drugs, abuse kids, beat their wives, kill...essentially do everything on your list. Apparently it doesn't work all that well.

Silly argument, maybe they were not Bible followers after all
Blaming a code that adheres to moral code, that most major religions hold and that most people find correct (I am talking about not killing folks), because some hypocrites use it as an excuse to do whatever they want is assinine. I am not advocating for one religion or another. I hate hunters because a boatload of them are unethical slobs.

 

[Jamen]

I think there is also a cultural disconnect. What i viewed as a problem or something i may have struggled with others did not. Same goes for today, kids are dealing with a lot of different issues that to many don't seem to be an issue and are ignored. The world today is completely different than it was even 10 or even 5 years ago. What we may view as a very small or minor and nonissue kids may view it completely different.

I think people need to be more open about those differences. How we "I" handled issues was mainly suck it up throw some dirt on it and move on. There isn't that mentality today and i see a big disconnect.

 

[woods89]

As someone who takes my Christian faith very seriously, I'll offer a response. I can go down the road of why I think everyone should be a Christian, but I recognize that everyone gets to choose, and not everyone wants to. We could get this thread locked pretty quick.

What I do see are the same cultural shifts that everyone else is discussing on this thread. The United States is not, and never was a "Christian nation." A nation cannot be Christian; only individual believers can be Christian. However, the historical widespread adherence to Christianity had a substantial effect on American society as a whole. Most of the time this was overwhelmingly positive, but unfortunately it has also been abused at times. Relating to what @okie archer wrote, I see a couple of shifts that I think are valid whether you subscribe to Christianity or not.

First, our culture is shifting away from an absolute standard of morality to everything being up to the individual. Historically, the Bible had a significant effect on the formation of this standard. Be honest. Love your neighbor. Don't cheat on your spouse. Don't kill people. Even people who broke the rules knew what the list of rules was. You could be trusted with a shotgun in your pickup in the school parking lot, because there was a sense that you knew that shooting someone with it would be a horribly evil act. However, as we decided that some parts of an absolute moral code no longer applied (Christian or not), I see it as a natural progression that "Thou shalt not kill" is losing its grip as a universal moral principle today.

Second, as our culture has moved more intentionally away from Christianity in the last few decades, we seem to have equated that with moving away from spiritual input of any kind. In the complexity of what makes us human, I'm convinced that there is a spiritual component to each of us. For some people, Christianity or another religion fills that role. Some people sort of roll their own ego into that role. Some people struggle with life because they don't find anything to fill that space. Again, as we've moved away from Christianity as the major player of this role in our culture, I fear that we've left succeeding generations with a lack of anything to fill that hole. Some maybe have done okay, but I suspect that some on the fringe have been left more vulnerable to the darkness of this kind of violence.

You can agree or disagree as you wish. No one is required to think the same as me. However, this is also why I don't believe any legislation will fix school shootings. There is selfishness and emptiness in people's hearts, and no legislature has a solution for that.

QQ

I'd agree with a lot of what you say. I also take my faith very seriously, but I cringe when I hear people advocating that government get involved in religious exercises. This is a task for parents, in my opinion.

I have all kinds of ideas of things that would probably help, but who knows. What makes this all quite difficult is that so many of these things can't really be legislated. How do you force 2 people to have a functional marriage if they're going to have children? How do you force the media to take a different approach with covering these events? How do you get young people counseling and/or meds if they don't think they need it? How do you force kids to get off their devices and get outside?

All I can come up with at this point is to do the best I can for my children and those in my circle. I think perhaps a lot of people don't really want to know how we got here, as it might require some painful changes.

 

[Deleted member 52098]

spare me the religious angle... how many people, especially young kids, have been harmed in the name of religion or by religious leaders. Being religious or following a religion doesn't make you good person automatically.

 

[VikingsGuy]

God, Satan, Easter Bunny.... Santa Claus..... Tooth Fairy.... who else is going to get name dropped?

Send in the rodeo clown TT to end this topic

Try any good cheese lately?

I get it, some believe, some don’t. But comparing deeply held religious beliefs to a fairytale is juvenile.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Who gets to pick the "right" one? Lots of things can "trigger" school kids, even decent ones. Most triggered I ever was, was 3rd grade in Rigby Idaho in the 70s. It was my turn to lead the "class prayer" where I was mocked for folding my hands and not my arms (99% were Mormon). The teacher reassured that class that someday "I would know." I believe I do "know" that kind of bullshit has no place in a school.

More "God" isn't going to keep the psychopaths at bay.

Aww poor greenhorn got picked on by the cult of Mormonism.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

spare me the religious angle... how many people, especially young kids, have been harmed in the name of religion or by religious leaders. Being religious or following a religion doesn't make you good person automatically.

This just shows how little of an understanding you have. Religion has nothing to do with it. Religion doesn't make anybody good.

 

[Addicting]

Do people who twist the US Constitution to suit their agendas invalidate the Constitution?

QQ

I wonder about this from the perspective of making the punishment fit the crime.

Seems to me there would be a solution to have the shooter information deemed Top secret for law enforcement use only. Revoke any living shooter’s citizenship and deem them a domestic terrorist.

What rights would they still have, could we not make them simply disappear into the mindless voids of our government system never to be seen again? Make their living bodies subject to medical experiments to repay for the life’s they took.

Eye for an eye….

 

[BuzzH]

Silly argument, maybe they were not Bible followers after all
Blaming a code that adheres to moral code, that most major religions hold and that most people find correct (I am talking about not killing folks), because some hypocrites use it as an excuse to do whatever they want is assinine. I am not advocating for one religion or another. I hate hunters because a boatload of them are unethical slobs.

You must really think people, and in particular kids, are stupid.

Well, news flash, they aren't. They don't like being forced to adhere to your standards, in particular when the see the hypocrisy of those that are forcing their phony values on them.

Yes, PHONY, because I can tell you there are tens of thousands of "believers", "followers" whatever you want to call them, that do all the things on that list...every single day.

I see it, our kids see it, and you try to pass it off as, "well they weren't REAL followers...

Oh yes they were, ask them, they'll tell you.

Look, like I already said, I have NO trouble with religion if it works for some people.

What I have trouble with is the idiotic and untrue notion that religion would solve this, or any other issue. There's several thousand years of proof to the contrary...

 

[more_cowbell]

"Non-religion religions", have also killed a lot of people. Lenin and Stalin were atheist and killed millions. Ironically, they achieved secular immortality but little else. People screw things up all the time. Humans are fundamentally flawed.

Back to the kids and society -- kids "grow up" a lot faster these days, with the internet/social media, and availability of "novel" ideas about everything from everywhere. Social media can make kids feel bad about themselves -- creating anxiety and depression. This makes them less able to deal with adversity. Plus their attention spans are toast. Then they need meds and/or counseling. And now bullying (though that term can be overused or misused), can happen not only on the playground at recess, but also from 3000 miles away.

This is not to say that a kid with major issues who does really bad things to others, is only a victim and should not be accountable. We need a lot more productive dialogue to try and fix things.

But the dialogue seems to often devolve into people throwing out opinions colored by un-disclosed life experience baggage they're hauling around.

As an aside, Oregon has been blue forever, but we're almost at, if not actually at, the bottom in the nation for providing mental health services to people who need it. So even Dems can't figure out what to do -- they've decriminalized hard drugs and thrown hundreds of millions of dollars at the homelessness issue services industry (where a fair number of the homelessness suffer from either addiction and/or mental health issues).