HB149...60/40 take 2
- Thread starter BuzzH
- Start date
JLS, WOW! I guess you will support Wyo bills that cut nonres proportion of deer, elk, and antelope tags and hand them over to Wyo res as well? I don't think many nonres realize that this will likely come to reality in the coming years since 60/40 failed! Wyo residents are groaning about how long it takes to draw ALL big game tags. If you think a little deeper you will realize that 60/40 would have solidified an even greater proportion of revenue for the WG&F by nonres. It would have been a lot tougher for a bill to pass that would shift nonres tags to Wyo res or outfitters (similar to NM) since nonres would be supporting an even greater chunk of revenue. Wyo nonres DIY/OYO hunters better be ready for battle! I hate to belly-ache but this was truely a sad day for DIY/OYO nonres hunters!
Then stop bellyaching. I hate the tiered system to begin with and was not going to support something that made it worse. And I draw about half of my WY tags in the Special draw. I'm not going to base my support of this bill on something that may or may not happen in the future. I will deal with each issue as it arrives. If you still think this was a funding issue, you have had your head in the sand.
BuzzH
Well-known member
jims, do you ever wonder why you're the only one that shares you're opinions on these issues? A vast majority realize what this was about, and took appropriate action. I was a small piece of why this incredibly bad bill was hammered in the Senate. Makes me smile that money didn't trump the N.A.M. and the hunter of average means.
Study up on what happened in Wyoming when outfitters went after outfitter only licenses.
WYOGA knows better...there aren't many issues that will bring pitchforks and torches to Cheyenne quicker.
Study up on what happened in Wyoming when outfitters went after outfitter only licenses.
WYOGA knows better...there aren't many issues that will bring pitchforks and torches to Cheyenne quicker.
Last edited:
Buzz, At first I thought of it as an outfitter bill but the more I thought about it the more I could see it would benefit ALL nonres hunters. I've stayed true to what I believe even though it may not be the most popular stance. As I've told you numerous times I could care less if outfitters supported this bill. I really felt it would benefit nonres DIY/OYO hunters....not only short but long term. Now that it's over I am truely worried about nonres opportunities in the future. I am not looking forward to what's going to be on the legislature agenda in the coming years. Wyo nonres hunters be ready to battle...that's all I have to say!
BuzzH
Well-known member
The more you thought about it, the easier you saw yourself hunting Wyoming every year flying with a special priced tag.
That's where your thinking ended.
I'd get yourself thinking about how many NR's should be able to apply on a party application next...
I'll give you a hint, no legislation required.
That's where your thinking ended.
I'd get yourself thinking about how many NR's should be able to apply on a party application next...
I'll give you a hint, no legislation required.
Even though it is to my detriment, I firmly believe in and support that states such as MT and WY manage their wildlife resources for their residents first. If Wyoming were to have to reduce hunter numbers because of populations sustainability issues, I would expect them to start with non-residents first.
Ding ding ding
I guess you can call it...good news that Wyo residents will lobby to cut nonres tags, good news that both regular and special tags will likely increase in price, good news that outfitters will likely formulate new bills so they get a larger cut of tags, the list goes on what nonres DIY hunters will be up against in coming years since this didn't pass?
Bad news that nonres were not willing to step up and supported an increase in the WG&F's revenue with no change to nonres tag allotments, bad news that nonres license fees would have remained the same for several years with this added revenue, bad news that Wyo res tag allotments will likely increase and be taken from nonres in the near future, bad news that Wyo DIY hunters will likely have to battle outfitters, governor, and special interest group tags, the list goes on. Nonres DIY/OYO hunters would have solidfied their influence and voice by stepping up and supporting a larger chunk of the WG&F revenue if 60/40 would have passed.
Ding dong....ding dong....wake up guys!
Be prepared for funky legislation in coming coming years that will be everything but favorable for DIY/OYO nonres hunters in Wyo! Wyo res and outfitters that are capable of making changes in the legislature could care less about the Ave Joe hunter and you guys just shot yourself in the foot!
Bad news that nonres were not willing to step up and supported an increase in the WG&F's revenue with no change to nonres tag allotments, bad news that nonres license fees would have remained the same for several years with this added revenue, bad news that Wyo res tag allotments will likely increase and be taken from nonres in the near future, bad news that Wyo DIY hunters will likely have to battle outfitters, governor, and special interest group tags, the list goes on. Nonres DIY/OYO hunters would have solidfied their influence and voice by stepping up and supporting a larger chunk of the WG&F revenue if 60/40 would have passed.
Ding dong....ding dong....wake up guys!
Be prepared for funky legislation in coming coming years that will be everything but favorable for DIY/OYO nonres hunters in Wyo! Wyo res and outfitters that are capable of making changes in the legislature could care less about the Ave Joe hunter and you guys just shot yourself in the foot!
Last edited by a moderator:
Jim, I consider myself the average newbie NR hunter in WY. I don't know squat about politics and barely enough about each states tag allocation system to be able to apply in each state that I want to. I want to be able to come out every year and hunt antelope or mule deer with my wife and 2 daughters on regular priced tags. I can not afford to buy Special priced tags every year for 4 people so that we can hunt the same season and area together. (the whole concept of the guy with a bigger checkbook having better odds of drawing is still ridiculous in my opinion). Without all the "likelys" , can you explain how defeating this bill will hurt me or how passing it would have helped me? And I'm not talking about 5 years from now. WY will have some different people making these decisions as time goes by and we will have to battle every few years I would guess.
BuzzH
Well-known member
jims,
The amount of extra revenue that would have been generated is a big question mark. I think the conflicting "data" that showed a fiscal note of $266,000 last year when WYOGA ran the same bill, compared to the fiscal note this year of $424,000 was a deal breaker with the senate. Even worse, in public testimony in the senate trw committee, Krone was spouting "half a million" as the revenue.
While that sounds like a lot of revenue to you, its not a game changer for the WYGF when considering the annual operating budget is 74 million a year.
There's plenty more to consider regarding the budget as well, the main one being that the budget is not in the dire situation that many think. There is no doubt a projected shortfall coming, but a few things have happened to shore up the GF through this decade. One is a huge "bump" in Pittman/Robertson funding via the "Obama is going to take our guns" scare. Another is a savings in revenue from the 6-8% reduction that Gov. Mead demanded on all State Agencies. Finally, the last piece was the passing of SF45 last year that if fully implemented by the Legislature and Governor Mead will give the GF another $7,000,000 in revenue (Grizzly Bear Management and Employee health coverage).
That's all real money that isn't going to take tags away from the average guy, isn't going to shred the North American Model, or create classes of hunters and associated tag distribution based on the size of one guys wallet over another. Further, it takes the Legislature out of the tag allocation business, which they really have NO right meddling in and also sends a message to WYOGA that the minority of outfitters can not get their way over the 95% of hunters that come to Wyoming and hunt on their own.
The upside to this failing is, there simply is no downside. Its a big win for the average hunter and those that want to experience Wyoming hunting with their families/friends without breaking the bank. Its about attracting future generations of hunters and giving youth hunters a chance at 60% of the tags at NR youth fees VS.40% of the tags. Its about the preservation of the best Wildlife Conservation Model in the world.
Thanks again to all that participated in the process and did what's right for the average hunter...you guys are rock stars.
The amount of extra revenue that would have been generated is a big question mark. I think the conflicting "data" that showed a fiscal note of $266,000 last year when WYOGA ran the same bill, compared to the fiscal note this year of $424,000 was a deal breaker with the senate. Even worse, in public testimony in the senate trw committee, Krone was spouting "half a million" as the revenue.
While that sounds like a lot of revenue to you, its not a game changer for the WYGF when considering the annual operating budget is 74 million a year.
There's plenty more to consider regarding the budget as well, the main one being that the budget is not in the dire situation that many think. There is no doubt a projected shortfall coming, but a few things have happened to shore up the GF through this decade. One is a huge "bump" in Pittman/Robertson funding via the "Obama is going to take our guns" scare. Another is a savings in revenue from the 6-8% reduction that Gov. Mead demanded on all State Agencies. Finally, the last piece was the passing of SF45 last year that if fully implemented by the Legislature and Governor Mead will give the GF another $7,000,000 in revenue (Grizzly Bear Management and Employee health coverage).
That's all real money that isn't going to take tags away from the average guy, isn't going to shred the North American Model, or create classes of hunters and associated tag distribution based on the size of one guys wallet over another. Further, it takes the Legislature out of the tag allocation business, which they really have NO right meddling in and also sends a message to WYOGA that the minority of outfitters can not get their way over the 95% of hunters that come to Wyoming and hunt on their own.
The upside to this failing is, there simply is no downside. Its a big win for the average hunter and those that want to experience Wyoming hunting with their families/friends without breaking the bank. Its about attracting future generations of hunters and giving youth hunters a chance at 60% of the tags at NR youth fees VS.40% of the tags. Its about the preservation of the best Wildlife Conservation Model in the world.
Thanks again to all that participated in the process and did what's right for the average hunter...you guys are rock stars.
Thanks for the update Buzz. Good news for the DIY hunter.
Where I don't disagree with jims is that there will be continued efforts in future years to chip away at the DIY hunter. In this instance, the facts prevailed. It had very little to do with revenue.
With the tiered system in place, the genie is out of the bottle and there will be future efforts to move the line. I genuinely appreciate Wyoming.
It could be much worse, NM elk is a sucker bet for most DIY applicants, IMHO.
Where I don't disagree with jims is that there will be continued efforts in future years to chip away at the DIY hunter. In this instance, the facts prevailed. It had very little to do with revenue.
With the tiered system in place, the genie is out of the bottle and there will be future efforts to move the line. I genuinely appreciate Wyoming.
It could be much worse, NM elk is a sucker bet for most DIY applicants, IMHO.
jryoung
Well-known member
Buzz, is there hope that in the future a resident price increase could pass?
JohnCushman
Well-known member
I think it's funny that jims has been a member here for 9 years and only has 104 posts...the majority of which have been in the last couple of weeks humping Buzz's leg and trying to smear him. I very much appreciate Buzz's opinions and trust his judgment about what happens and what's going on in Wyoming. I, personally, don't give a rat's ass about what happens over on Monster Muley's. I was a member for a while and saw nothing but arguments and personal attacks. So, once the odds calculator stopped being free, I stopped going there. Keep up the good work here Buzz!!
BuzzH
Well-known member
I called out the Senate TRW committee on this pretty hard in testimony. Get this, Senator Anderson, asked me a question when I testified, that 149 was about the only bill that raised revenue for the GF. He said that "you guys are having no success getting a fee increase passed"...
The guy lobbed me the biggest softball, likely every lobbed in a hearing. I said, "Senator Anderson, the sportsmens groups in Wyoming have tried the last 3 sessions to get a fee increase bill passed. That includes NR only, R only, and across the board fee increases. They have all died in committee, many in this committee. I challenge this committee to quit killing all the fee increase bills that we bring, in particular the Resident only fee increases. Its on YOU to see that these bills pass out of committee rather than die".
Oddly enough, there were no more questions for me.
So instead of nonres having the choice between paying current price fees and paying a little more for special tags nonres most nonres seem to be willing to pay more for both regular and priced tags in the near future. I'm a little shocked that those that aren't willing to pay a little more for special tags are all in favor of a price increase for both regular and special priced tags?
In case you are wondering, I play the draw stats game when applying for tags. Some years the regular and some years special tags are the way to go. It's pretty obvious to me that if special draw odds increase and a lot of guys switch over to the special draw that the regular draw odds will improve.
In reference to a post above that stated, "there will be continued efforts in future years to chip away at the DIY hunter...That is the exact reason I have been so firm and insistent believer in 60/40 is a good deal for Wyo nonres DIY/OYO hunters. What happens when Wyo residents continue to complain about not drawing tags? I can almost guarantee Wyo nores tag cuts will be on the agenda in the coming years and if 60/40 would have passed it would have made it a lot more difficult for this to happen!
I have a simple question for Buzz. If legislation comes to the table for an increase in resident vs nonres tags...which side of the table are you going to stand? There are a lot of nonres DIY/OYO hunters waiting for your answer!
In case you are wondering, I play the draw stats game when applying for tags. Some years the regular and some years special tags are the way to go. It's pretty obvious to me that if special draw odds increase and a lot of guys switch over to the special draw that the regular draw odds will improve.
In reference to a post above that stated, "there will be continued efforts in future years to chip away at the DIY hunter...That is the exact reason I have been so firm and insistent believer in 60/40 is a good deal for Wyo nonres DIY/OYO hunters. What happens when Wyo residents continue to complain about not drawing tags? I can almost guarantee Wyo nores tag cuts will be on the agenda in the coming years and if 60/40 would have passed it would have made it a lot more difficult for this to happen!
I have a simple question for Buzz. If legislation comes to the table for an increase in resident vs nonres tags...which side of the table are you going to stand? There are a lot of nonres DIY/OYO hunters waiting for your answer!
BuzzH
Well-known member
jims,
You're a day late as usual.
I fully support a Resident only fee increase, we've skated for a long time on cheap fees. For the record, I testified in favor of the R only fee increase bill last session, as did nearly all the WY based Sportsmen groups.
There was also a supporting poll conducted that found 63% of Resident hunters supported a Resident only fee increase.
I don't find $500 more for a NR elk tag, $200 more deer/pronghorn paying "a little more"...a moderate 5-10% fee increase is paying a "little more".
Wyoming Residents are not complaining about not drawing elk, deer, and pronghorn tags. Pretty tough to find a shoulder to cry on when we can kill 3 elk a year, 2 each of buck deer and pronghorn, unlimited WT does, 4 doe pronghorn a year, 2 lions, and a bear.
We're complaining about giving away more of our MSGB tags than other State in the nation and that many NR are drawing tags for those species with less points that Residents. Time to balance the scale and put WY in line with States like the one you live in.
BTW, how is that legislation coming along to increase sheep, moose, and goat tags available to CO NR's to 25%???
I need an update.
You're a day late as usual.
I fully support a Resident only fee increase, we've skated for a long time on cheap fees. For the record, I testified in favor of the R only fee increase bill last session, as did nearly all the WY based Sportsmen groups.
There was also a supporting poll conducted that found 63% of Resident hunters supported a Resident only fee increase.
I don't find $500 more for a NR elk tag, $200 more deer/pronghorn paying "a little more"...a moderate 5-10% fee increase is paying a "little more".
Wyoming Residents are not complaining about not drawing elk, deer, and pronghorn tags. Pretty tough to find a shoulder to cry on when we can kill 3 elk a year, 2 each of buck deer and pronghorn, unlimited WT does, 4 doe pronghorn a year, 2 lions, and a bear.
We're complaining about giving away more of our MSGB tags than other State in the nation and that many NR are drawing tags for those species with less points that Residents. Time to balance the scale and put WY in line with States like the one you live in.
BTW, how is that legislation coming along to increase sheep, moose, and goat tags available to CO NR's to 25%???
I need an update.
